EVs and solar panels

spalpeen

Hi, new to this EV stuff.

I overheard recently that EVs aren't really particularly good of a deal unless you have a home charger with solar panels, which then makes them very much a good deal. I know there are lots of variables to be taken into account, but is this directionally accurate in Ireland today?

Gumbo

Nope incorrect.

It sounds like you heard the tail end of a conversation to be honest.

glen123

Having cheap night electricity and being able to charge mainly at home is more important than solar panels, I think. 

I have both.

For solar panels to charge your car, your car needs to be at home during the day. Mine is at home during the day maybe 3-4 times a week and not all day.

Looking at May at my own stats, my car used a total of 447kw (345 - grid electricity, 102 - solar). This covered 2600km of driving.

At the time I was paying 8c for night electricity so 2600km worked out at 27.60eur (345 from grid x 0.08)

Even if I had had no solar, that would have worked out at 35.76eur for 2600km (447kw x 0.08). Not much of a difference.

I am now paying 14c during the night, so the same distance will now cost me 62.58eur without solar. I think it's still an excellent value for 2600km distance especially if we take into account half price tolls which in my case I have on the way to and back from work twice a week so that's another 2.20 x 2 = 4.40eur saved per week)

JPA

Having an ICE car is not beneficial unless you have an oil field in the back garden.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121072402#Comment_121072402

And even then you'd need to pay excise duty on it 😕

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058312377/evs-and-solar-panels

It's incorrect

Going on public charging alone is probably the hardest way to own an EV, but it can be done (and has been done by a few people here) and can be done for a cost generally lower than diesel. You sometimes need to sign up to monthly payment plans to avail of cheaper rates, but I'm fairly certain if I opened a petrol station and offered a significant discount for a monthly fee I'd have ever taxi and van driver biting my hand off 😂

Home charging is the most convenient way to own an EV. Just plug in when you need to and charge overnight. More suppliers are moving away from night rates to shorter EV charging times which give 3-4 hours at a very low price. This is typically enough to add several hundred kilometres of range so is likely enough for most users

Adding solar panels into the mix is the best way to own an EV IMO. It's hard to beat free fuel and that's exactly what solar panels give you. I've been tracking my driving and charging in the thread below, but the tldr version is I'm getting usually more than 60% of my driving this year from solar power, even in the miserable summer we've been having

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058294549/im-driving-on-sunshine-whooah

For September, I've yet to charge the car from the grid

Garzard

Leaf owner and planning to install solar next year, but didn't see the point of going on a night rate in the meantime as I mostly WFH anyway and have no need to charge at night for a commute. Most of my shifts centre around the day or early evening when the solar will be active and I'll probably only need to charge once a week, but that's just my own circumstances.

eltoastero

Solar Panels and a home charger is the optimum solution (I didn't pay to charge my car in July or so far in September for example). I charge off Solar when I can and then fill the car battery on the cheap night rate when I know I've a longer journey ahead.

Having an EV with a home charger but without Solar is still excellent (as I did for 1.5 years in a BEV and 2 previous years in a PHEV), just make sure you're on top of your electricity tariff to make sure you've a cheap charging time during the night.

Having an EV without a home charger would be more difficult I'd imagine, I see 5 or 6 ID4's with on street parking within a KM of my house and they just seem to take turns on the closest ESB AC charger (signing up to a subscription in this scenario to reduce the cost would be advised). But you still have the advantage of driving a comfortable, smooth, fast, cheaper to run EV.

unkel

Pinergy offer 5c incl VAT night rate for 3 hours per night.

Cost of EV in fuel over 30k km (year) €255

Cost of diesel car in fuel over 30k km (year) €3060

Paul Kiernan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121075530#Comment_121075530

You can't really put it any clearer than that, can you? Then throw in the €120 per year road tax and 50-75% reduction on tolls and you're laughing even louder.

magicbastarder

so you save potentially 3k a year; but that doesn't take into account the purchase cost of the car.

but take a skoda octavia as an example (it's a PHEV rather than a battery EV)

you can get a diesel octavia for approx 28k. the PHEV octavia is 43k. that'd take over five years to save the fuel costs. it's not an open and shut case in terms of value for money.

Finelli

Is there a case to be made for charging the car at night on the low rate and using the solar energy in the house and sending excess back to the grid during the day?

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121075735#Comment_121075735

And near zero maintenance. And insurance is generally cheaper for EVs. And depreciation will prove to be much lower than the depreciation we used to suffer on petrols and diesels

It is an open and shut case in terms of value for money. EVs that is, not (plug in) hybrids.

Both my own EVs have been charged purely from solar PV for the last 4 months now BTW. It's not just about money here, we need to stop burning stuff asap...

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121075794#Comment_121075794

Yeah, if your feed in rate is higher than your night rate, export during the day and charge at night.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121075757#Comment_121075757

Also, worth mentioning. The 30k a year quoted in that example is approx double what the average Irish car does in one year. So halve those savings for the average car.

I'm looking at replacing the car, I have an 11 year old Octavia. Getting to the point where yearly maintenance bills are pretty much expected. I am looking at EV options, but it's due to environmental concerns rather than an expectation of saving money, we do about 12 or 13k a year so fuel costs a little over a grand a year.

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058312377/evs-and-solar-panels

BS**2

In fact it is flip side of the new sales patter from PV installers if they find out you have an EV: free driving all summer long (iff the car is at home plugged in, factor 50 applied and ray bans in place)

An of course to avail of the night rate/ free Saturday/Sunday etc mumbo jumbo you need to keep the car plugged in again

so just get a bus pass

crl84

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121075757#Comment_121075757

Indeed.

Plus the cost of installing solar.

unkel

Nobody sane would spend €43k on a PHEV Skoda Octavia. That is mad money. PHEVs were only a tax dodge, worst of both worlds. Feel sorry for most people who bought one.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121072503#Comment_121072503

And employ some child slaves in the congo to mine you some cobalt that you need to refine the oil into petrol or diesel😂

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121077844#Comment_121077844

Let's not forget the enormous amount of electricity you'd need for the refinery

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121077839#Comment_121077839

yeah, possibly a bad example - but as per my (real world) one. my car does probably 70% what an average irish car does, and fuel costs me approx 9c per km. say €1,200 per year on fuel. there's no slam dunk financial argument for me to change to an EV, but on the assumption that i do change, the cheapest battery EV out there (new) seems to be an MG at €29k new. a hyundai i30 would be about 9k or 10k cheaper.

it'd take a long time for me to recoup that difference even if fuel costs were zero with the MG.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121077919#Comment_121077919

Could get a 2nd hand ID.3 for €23k, much easier to recoup the price difference

magicbastarder

Yes, but if you're going to introduce secondhand into the equation, you'd have to allow it for an ICE option too?

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121077919#Comment_121077919

There's simply no denying that. The less miles you do per year, the less favourable an EV is financially. People with huge commutes have huge savings. People used to buying cheap second hand cars, not doing much mileage, might be better off with a combustion car financially. That said there are some great bargains out there in older second hand EVs too, provided the car's range would suit your driving circumstances.

MojoMaker

Since when was it only about financials though?

Get rid of the damn nags @magicbastarder and the financial picture suddenly looks a lot healthier 😂

spalpeen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121078792#Comment_121078792

Why is low mileage less favourable for EVs? Is it because it takes longer to recoup the extra purchase cost compared to ICE vehicle?

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121149793#Comment_121149793

To some degree yes, although I think people get a bit hung up on recouping the price difference between EV and ICE

It's pretty rare that buying a car is a profitable enterprise anyway, so why do we suddenly all become accountants where EVs are concerned?

This kind of leads into my main point, which is that generally speaking it's more economical to keep a car running than replace it with a new one regardless of the purchase price

Maybe if you're doing bangernomics it's cheaper to replace but then you're spending a few grand evey couple of years on a new car

So for most people it becomes a situation where they want a new car. And since we're in the situation where it's a want rather than a need, I think it's fair to say that not every subsequent decision needs a thorough financial analysis and justification

magicbastarder

It's pretty rare that buying a car is a profitable enterprise anyway, so why do we suddenly all become accountants where EVs are concerned?

For two reasons; one is that an explicit selling point of EVs is the lower running cost. So that brings the financials into focus very quickly. Which is linked to the second point, the higher entry price point.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121149842#Comment_121149842

It's one of several selling points, not the only one

I agree that for a low mileage driver it's going to be very difficult to look at spending €9k more on an EV and say that makes sense financially

My point is that it's also going to be difficult to justify spending €20k on a new car as a good financial decision

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121075530#Comment_121075530

And the day, peak and night rates are? Just asking for people like me who don't have a zillion solar panels and batteries around the house and are using 9000 plus units per year.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121150691#Comment_121150691

Not quite sure, something like 47c outside the 3 hours cheap rate. You don't need any solar panels to make the most of this, but you would need to use a lot of your units during this period, I'd say you need both an EV and a home battery, the bigger the better. But even if you only use 60-70% of your units within this 3 hour period, it will work out cheaper than any other provider

But I'm the first to admit this isn't perfect for everyone. I have said it many times: do your own sums. For me, this is pretty much perfection, the only better (and greener) system is fully flexible agile rates that could completely change every 30 minutes, with rates between minus €0.25 (you get paid for using electricity) and plus €1.00 at peak time when there isn't enough wind / sun, like they are with Octopus Agile in the UK. Hopefully we will get that soon here too. My entire system would then pay for itself within a couple of years.