Increased penalty points for drivers on the way.

AMKC

Only right. The amount of people still on the road who can not drive is crazy .

Just yesterday I seen someone drive straight through a roundabout with tgere right indicator on but they did not turn right. Then today nearly in a crash because some stupid Woman thought following the car in front of her while passing a vehicle was a good idea instead of making sure it was safe herself before she decided to go past it. Thankfully it was Narowally avoided because she would have came out worse in it with the lesser car. Saying that it would not have been good for either in a head on crash. Not something I ever want to be in.

Gatling

They can increase points and fines but until they actually have Guards on on roads nothing will change,. bank holidays and Christmas check points is all well and good,but without the resources to police roads it's another tax for a better word,

I was almost ran off the road the other day by a Garda car driving the wrong way despite the road on having no other traffic on the particular strech , Garda car had no lights or sirens on at the time either

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121065958#Comment_121065958

Yes I agree. I think it's more about trying to frighten and scare people again. I know there is plenty of L drivers out there still driving by themselves but if these new rules come in it means them getting caught will cost them more in points. I think if a driver has done 12 lessons and the tester deems them confident and safe enough then they should be allowed drive as themselves as long as they have booked in for their driving test too. If not then more lessons until they are there if they need to drive by themselves because not every learner in the Country has the option of having someone with them.

Good!

mode1990

Until there's a proper garda traffic Corp with auto plate recognition then placing go safe vans in 50km zones will have zero impact ! I can't remember the last time I seen a motorbike gard actually doing traffic enforcement not greenlighting football teams to stadiums !

sligeach

I posted about this on another thread, the complete disregard by motorists on Irish roads to the rules, basic stuff at times. This is typical reactive government, never pro active. Most drivers I see are ć#ñ#ś, they only respect the rules where Gardai or speed vans are visible. To the few that obey the rules, I apologize. But you are few and far between.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121047727#Comment_121047727

I know it's different, but I see similar disregard for the law with dog owners out walking; no lead, dog $#íţß wherever and no clean up by the owner, or worse still they pick it up in plastic bags, only to throw it in trees, that look like Christmas +üřđ decorations.

And I mention this because I seen a w##### tonight cycling(lamping, through fields with a light that could guide in planes at Dublin airport) with their dog off the lead in the pitch dark, half a km away whistling at their dog who couldn't care less, is running wild, chasing wildlife in the local park, and a stray cat. I told them I knew exactly what they were at, they told me to mind my own business, before making a hasty runner. You shouldn't have a dog if you can't mind it responsibly.

SEPT 23 1989

Drove from the south east to Dublin yesterday didn’t see one cop car

bop1977

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066312#Comment_121066312

you didn't see them because their latest tatic is to park on the slip road of motorways and pull people for speeding.

plodder

I'm not sure that is an anomaly as claimed by the minister. I'd say it was a deliberate intention that you would need multiple separate occasions over a three year period of deliberate misbehaviour before you could be banned from driving, which is a very serious situation to find yourself in.

Say you are stopped for one offence, mobile phone usage (3 points) and the garda then sees the kid in the back has taken his seatbelt off (3 points), your NCT is out of date as you couldn't get a test appointment (3 points). And to top it off, the guard noticed that when following you, you failed to stop at a stop sign (because there was nothing coming the other way) 3 points. Okay the last one is far-fetched. When have the gardai ever enforced that provision? In theory though you could have had a clean record yesterday and be banned from driving today, over a collection of relatively minor offences.

mickdw

I think you can only be given points for one offence at any given traffic stop.... whichever is the highest points wise.

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066630#Comment_121066630

so based on this "collection of relatively minor offences" bar the NCT one, what activities attract PPs that are not relatively minor offences..

By way of a //, in OZ, they double the PPs for running red lights at weekends and bank holidays, most lights have cameras, so you run two lights at the weekend, off the road

mvt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066630#Comment_121066630

If you think these are minor offences whilst supposedly in control of a tonne of moving metal I would hate to think what you consider major ones.

Jim_Hodge

Anybody who lauds increased penalty points, as a means to make roads safer, has their head in the clouds. We don't need more PPs, we need more enforcement. And regular enforcement, not Slow Down days followed by As You Were days. Even then it goes beyond speed and we need phone use, unroadworthy vehicles, licences, seatbelts, careless driving etc. all policed fully and habitually.

pcardin

I can only side with Gatling on this. Gov can bring whatever rules and fines they want but there is little to no policing in this country. Traffic corps only job seems to be a task given them by states revenue - issue fines for no motor tax and lack of valid NCT (which itself is a comedy gold and example of height of incompetence), and of course speed vans. You would rarely if ever see a Garda pulling someone over for driving in the middle lane on a empty motorway, crazy dumb eej1ts who join motorways like they join T junction with a STOP sign, self important pr1cks who drive cars in heavy rain and dark evenings without any lights (as they can see the road still and dashboard is lit up, why care about others), clowns who have no clue what the heck a roundabout is and how to use it, never mind how to indicate properly, people who drive 60km/h on a 120km/h motorway, and this list could go on and on. What's worse, it is often a Garda car that does any of the above mentioned. They should be the one setting an example, but they themselves at some point were taught to drive by the same above mentioned clowns. So what exactly will any of these fines achieve? A proper enforcement is required.

magicbastarder

the issue specifically being addressed is to correct the situation that when a driver is caught committing more than one offence, currently they only get the points from the offence which garners the higher number of points. this change would mean they get points for every qualifying offence.

tesla_newbie

More nanny statism , we offer an Air BnB service and almost all our foreign guests comment on how civilised drivers are here

this is just more government over reach

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066666#Comment_121066666

That's the rule that the minister wants to change so you would get all the points for the whole shooting gallery.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066683#Comment_121066683

Cameras are a good idea. Enforcement is what we should be focusing on. Ratcheting up penalties with lax enforcement turns the system into a lottery.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066714#Comment_121066714

I figured someone would be along to focus on that rather than the actual point I made.

Honey50000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058312114/increased-penalty-points-for-drivers-on-the-way

The goverment are so useless they cant think of anything else to do so they go with the easy option

Floppybits

They can increase the points all they like but without proper enforcement and the visibility of the Gardai on the roads it is not worth a damn. The reason why we are seeing this is that everyone knows the chances of being caught are 0. Same with what is happening with lack of visibility on the streets.

Uncle Pierre

If you want to talk anomalies....have a look at the points and financial penalties for certain offences, e.g.:

• Driving on a motorway against the flow of traffic - 2 points, €80 fine
• Failure to turn left when entering a roundabout (i.e. either going straight across the central bit, or turning right and heading straight into other traffic) - 1 point, €60 fine

But...driving at 90 km/h in perfect driving conditions on a near empty road like this (outskirts of Enniscorthy, Co. Wexford, and where a 100 km/h limit used to apply but it's now 80km/h): 3 points, €160 fine.

I emphasise I'm not condoning breaking the limit there, or anywhere else. Am merely suggesting those first two are far more dangerous and stupid, and surely attract a much higher penalty than the speeding one.

EDIT - here's the link for that road, as not working properly above:

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.5351891,-6.5539751,3a,75y,201.35h,76.38t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1skNLD6Spag_-s28azgC8UUQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DkNLD6Spag_-s28azgC8UUQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D104.480286%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

Economics101

Huge moral panic from recent tragic accidents.

As far as I am aware they were largely on rural side-roads and single vehicle. Most Garda and other (speed-limit) enforcement is on motorways and national routes. So it's a fair bet that increased penalties will apply to roads which are unlike those on which many late-night single-vehicle accidents occur.

Also it's the accident rate (say fatalities per 1000km travelled) whihc really counts, rather than the absolute number of accidents, which takes no account of the huge increase in traffic levels over the decades.

magicbastarder

another great example of anomalies in penalties - in front of the same judge on the same day in balbriggan earlier this year:

• chap on an e-scooter, stopped by gardai and asked to produce proof of insurance. sounds like he gave a bit of back-chat. 4 year driving ban, €350 fine
• chap caught driving on the M1 at 155km/h, two and a half times over the alcohol limit with two open cans beside him. 3 year driving ban, €750 fine.

as mentioned - same judge, same day. that's bonkers.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066889#Comment_121066889

I work with a Portuguese colleague, he often comments how obedient we are to speed limits here. Says 130/140 is common on motorways there even if limit is 120.

I don't think speed is the problem, its a combination of a lot of other factors. There seems to be this narrative over the years that once you're below the limit you're driving must be perfect. When in reality its wrong speed in wrong situations or conditions that are the problem.

Another big problem is people not reading the road ahead or around them, not anticipating what is happening or about to happen.

cython

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121065982#Comment_121065982

I think if a driver has done 12 lessons and the tester deems them confident and safe enough then they should be allowed drive as themselves as long as they have booked in for their driving test too.

I think you may have misphrased this somewhat, as surely the very act of a tester deeming a driver confident and safe enough is them granting the learner a passing grade in the test (thus allowing them to progress to a full licence), and can indeed only happen when they sit the test, not when they've booked in and are waiting for an appointment as you outline. Did you perhaps mean to say their instructor would be the one to make this assessment? While there are problems with access to test appointments, personally I'd see this as a regressive measure after much work done to improve our driver education system.

As for the immediate proposal in the article, I'll echo what's been said by other posters that's what's needed here is more sticks of the current size (detection and enforcement, with resultant application of the penalties) rather than simply increasing the size of the stick being brandished and hoping the same sparse enforcement of the larger threat works.

Acosta

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066968#Comment_121066968

I've already read a couple of articles this morning, where the terrible accidents of the last couple of weeks, that accured on rural back roads are referenced as reasons why drivers need to cop on. While Guards and speed vans are out on motorways and main roads today.

Ten of Swords

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066919#Comment_121066919

This

They can update the legislation all they want but at some point they will have to actually do something and (automated systems aside) I wonder if there are enough gardai for this to be as effective as they hope it will be.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UuL23mkEKnY

magicbastarder

i would suspect gardai would not want to be standing holding a hairdryer on a back road where they suspect people are driving dangerously.

bucketybuck

All this legislation change will do is lead to minor offenders being banned left right and centre while the major offenders continue to do whatever the **** they want.

So some poor bastard in the city will get banned for driving 40kmph with a bulb out while in the sticks lads will continue to drive like Colin McRae and wrap themselves around telegraph poles.

But I expect no less from the social media government.

mvt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066925#Comment_121066925

The point you seemed to be trying to make is that while you were on the phone behind the wheel of a moving car you didn't notice that you drove through a stop sign ,your child had no seat belt on & your vehicle was potentially unroadworthy & that you were being unfairly victimized for all this- is this your point ?

murpho999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066320#Comment_121066320

You generally don't get the Gardai doing that but now replaced by unmanned speed vans.

Also, you sound like you think it's ok for people to speed and break the limits on motorways which is just wrong.

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121067287#Comment_121067287

Quite common for them to do that on the n11, have seen them numerous times at jn13.

ThreeGreens

Speeding used to have 2 penalty points. It was then upped to 3 penalty points.

Is there any evidence that increasing it to 3 points has had any positive effect? I'm presuming not, which would indicate that increasing it further is unlikely to be useful, and efforts might be better directed elsewhere (perhaps enforcement).

3DataModem

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066963#Comment_121066963

I hear you.

20 years point free, and now my car got clocked at 89 and 93 in the port tunnel a week apart. 6 points... 😲

I'm a fan of the points system, but got snookered this time. 7pm on a Saturday the tunnel was empty so so easy to creep over the 80 average.

murpho999

For me, looking at the recent tragic road deaths and general increase in numbers this year, there needs to be an overhaul in road safety from top to bottom.

In no particular order the following needs to happen:

1.   Speed limits should match road conditions not classification of road.

I’ve seen narrow country roads that I can barely do 60kph on with speed limits of 100kph. That’s the same as most of the M50 which is crazy.

Country road should be decreased and the M50 should make better use of new variable speed limit

2.   Enforcement. Needs to improve. Not just with speed vans but actual random and mobile checkpoints that check speed, seatbelts, and alcohol/drug intake

People should genuinely be afraid of getting caught at all times.

3.   Enforcement again: Fine drivers for parking in cycle lanes, parking on footpaths. Need to realise they do not own the road.

4.   Cycle lanes: There really needs to be a rethink as current infrastructure is dangerous for cyclists and too many get killed:

5.   Tech: Garda cars should have number plate recognition in all cars.

6.   Remove tax and insurance discs. Use tech to have all details in car reg database so that fines/warnings are automatically issued. Free up gardai from checking that on roads and they can focus on other issues.

7.   Driving test revamp: Current test not fit for purpose, Does not include motorway driving. Standard of motorway driving here is appalling. Joining motorways at 60-80kph whilst traffic is at 120kph.  Cars driving too slow on motorways due to people thinking there’s a slow lane and fast lane and you can go as slow as you want in the “slow lane”. Then on 3 lane roads, driving in middle lane whilst driving lane is empty. 80% of drivers do this due to pure ignorance and not being taught properly. This then leads to motorway being effectively reduced by one lane and forcing people into outside lane leading to more accidents. 

The difference when you drive abroad on a motorway is remarkable.

I actually passed my test in The Netherlands, and the difference in teaching and testing there compared to here is night and day. Totally changed how I drive.

Get this corrected then the mindset carries on to driving on regional roads

8.   Learner drivers; Should only be on the road with an instructor in dual controlled car. Too many abuses of current system of driving with a qualified driver (who can do nothing) and they just drive on their own on busy roads without experience and proper instruction and also very little chance of being caught. They must pass test before being allowed on road and then as “N” driver.

9.   Road Safety Authority: Not fit for purpose, just appoint celebrity chair people and put ads on TV but no proper reviews or campaigns for change.

Apologies for long post. Hope it makes sense and also hope that change happens but just fear it's something that gets attention now and all we get is more speed checks, slow down days and ads. Not fixing the root of the problem.

bop1977

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121067287#Comment_121067287

I don't agree with people speeding. my problem is the lack of police presence on the roads. this leads people to go "feck it sure there are never cops on these roads" and speed.

its peoples mindset that needs to change and to change that mindset you need to routinely see cops patrolling. and I mean cops cars actually driving up and down roads in marked units. that will have a bigger impact on road safety than there current solution.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121067124#Comment_121067124

Eh, this didn't happen to me. When I started the anecdote with the word "say" was it not clear that it was hypothetical?

It was an illustration of how someone with a clean record could end up being put off the road from a series of what I called "minor" offences, which is pretty much the definition of administrative penalties automatically applied, rather than by a judge in a court.

As someone said already, doing something about these appalling road traffic tragedies, would require the government to actually do something, more than just the easy option of increasing penalty points (having recently doubled many associated fines from €80 to €160).

One thing that comes to mind is the crazy delay (up to two years) before coroner's inquests can take to even start here, long after an incident has faded from public memory. In the UK, they are often completed in 6 months. Surely, understanding what happened while the incident is still in people's minds would be very useful. But, that would require a lot more effort across multiple departments, finding funding etc.

pcardin

@murpho999 "6.   Remove tax and insurance discs. Use tech to have all details in car reg database so that fines/warnings are automatically issued. Free up gardai from checking that on roads and they can focus on other issues."

This! Have brought up myself this same issue multiple times. Like, what the heck?! Paper discs plastered on your windshield like in 1955. Seriously?! Whos personal business (or his/hers spuses) of a Dail member it is?

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121066889#Comment_121066889

I have lived and had cars in many countries and I agree. Irish drivers are better behaved than drivers in any other country i have ever driven in.

brokenbad

Drinking and driving still happening a lot - especially around pubs in rural areas. Car parks full on a Sat/ Sun night and almost empty first thing next morning....not all of them are drinking soft drinks, non alcoholic beers or water. I see it near a rural pub where i live and have heard countless stories of lads having "near misses" on the way home after a feed of pints....

prunudo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121067307#Comment_121067307

I see the news are quoting a motorist caught in Newcastle, Co. Wicklow doing 134 in a 100 during todays 'National Slow down day' pr shunt. It is more than likely the location I mentioned. Now while its a bit fast, this section of road is a motorway in all but name. Does it really warrant the pat of the back that the rsa and gardai are looking for.

An ambulance or patrol car would easily be reaching this speed while attending an incident. And on that, what speed did the patrol car have to reach to catch up with aforementioned motorist.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121067430#Comment_121067430

Many good points, but a practical issue with including motorway driving in lessons and tests is that there are many parts of the country that are nowhere near a motorway. One extreme example is Dingle in Co. Kerry - a learner driver there would face a round trip of close to five hours to be able to take a lesson or do a test on the M7 around Limerick, or the M8 around Fermoy or Cork.

Even where I live in south County Wexford, it's more than 30 minutes to the southern end of the M11 motorway at Oylegate, and close to an hour to the motorway at Waterford.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121067508#Comment_121067508

On the last 'Slow Down' day in April, one of the speeds reported was 112 km/h on this stretch of the main road to Rosslare Harbour (speed limit 100 km/h):

Again, am not condoning breaking the limit here or anywhere else. But going back to what I said earlier, is that really more dangerous (warranting three points and a €160 fine) than driving the wrong way on a motorway (just two points and an €80 fine)?

mvt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121067478#Comment_121067478

What was clear to me that you were describing someone driving in a way that is totally indefensible.

Perhaps you could come up with an an anecdote of how someone could accumulate 12 penalty points in one encounter with a guard that doesn't make the driver look like part of the problem.

csirl

First thing this morning I waa driving down a one way street only to be met by a car driving in the opposite direction.........directly outside a Garda Station. I had just entered the street - which is quite long, so the car had to have driven the wrong way for 100s of yards.

Furze99

Increasing penalty points is a nonsense strategy, just like the talk of reducing speed limits on all rural roads. You can't legislate a magic bullet to deliver 'road safety'.

Road safety comes down to millions of small decisions made by drivers and other road users every day.

It's be far more effective to run campaigns emphasising 'defensive driving', that drivers should expect the unexpected all the time. That other road users should expect the unexpected on public roads. Once people have basic skills and knowledge, road safety is largely a matter of attitude.

Boggles

All stick no carrot, as usual.

Make essential maintenance parts for vehicles cheaper.

Tyres, brakes, etc.

magicbastarder

the vast majority of near misses i see on the road have nothing to do with worn tyres or brakes, it's driver behaviour.

as i am often heard saying, if you want to see what irish drivers can be like, stick an L plate up in your car. the behaviour of (some) other drivers around you will deteriorate noticeably.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121067755#Comment_121067755

Yes, expect the unexpected....or to put it the way it was told to me when I was learning to drive 35 years ago, in what remains the best piece of advice I got: "always assume everybody else is a f***ing eejit. But don't be a f***ing eejit yourself."

In other words: be prepared for others to do something unexpected and stupid, and be prepared to react if they do, but don't ever do anything unexpected or stupid yourself.

Have to say I think an advertising campaign with a slogan like that would be both memorable and effective. 😁

murpho999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121067604#Comment_121067604

Something would have to be worked out. How can you can expect people to be permitted to drive on a busy fast road that requires a different driving style and understanding without teaching or driving on one?

As things stand nothing is taught about motorways a t all.