Constituency changes

Gloomtastic!

Surprised there hasn’t been a thread started with on this already.

So we’re getting another 14 TD’s. I can hear the cheers ringing out throughout the country - not!

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1172438/parliament-members-in-the-eu-and-uk-by-country/

When are we going to have a referendum to change the 1 per 30,000 to a more acceptable 1 per 100,000?

Overheal

When are we going to have a referendum to change the 1 per 30,000 to a more acceptable 1 per 100,000?

Why stop there why not have a referendum to toss the whole democracy and install a monarch? Really bump those numbers up for economic expedience.

SortingYouOut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058311488/constituency-changes

I suppose if the population ever did become as substantial as the likes of the UK, we'd have no choice but to reign that in or build a 1 billion euro extension onto Leinster House.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058311488/constituency-changes

Why is that a more acceptable ratio? What underpins that thinking?

Gregor Samsa

According to the link in the OP, we're right in the middle of the graph, and comparable with other countries with a similar population (Denmark, Slovakia, Finland, Bulgaria), so it's somewhat reassuring to see there isn't a problem with the stipulations in our Constitution on this matter.

Thanks, OP, you've just saved us a needless referendum!

Dank Janniels

My area of North Galway is now back into Galway East and becomes a 4-seater. I heard Michael Fitzmaurice is bullin over the loss of most of his heartland! He'll top the poll though with a massive surplus anyway now that Dennis Naughton isnt running

Gloomtastic!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121047207#Comment_121047207

We live in Dublin Bay North (DBN) and have 5 TDs. If I have a serious issue that I need help with, who do I contact for assistance? One of them or all of them? Do I just contact my No 1 preference?

In the past I’ve contacted all of them. So five people doing one person’s job. Is that a good use of resources? No.

But TDs shouldn’t be dealing with constituents’ problems you say. They should be dealing with national legislator. Correct. Well tell TDs that! They seem more interested in attending funerals than sorting out the country’s problems.

Why do we need more of them when it isn’t for the benefit of the country? The only people who benefit are the TDs and their hangers-on so therefore it’s a total waste of resources to have more of them.

Str8outtaWuhan

The electoral commission is independent but their terms of reference are not. Only in Ireland.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121049869#Comment_121049869

That's very much more a rant about multi seat constituencies than it is about the ration of TD to population and doesn't answer the question asked.

That said, you have a point re: national legislators doing local work. However, nothing else in your post supports the notion that reducing the ratio of TDs to population is a good idea.

IMHO, the benefits of the Multi-Seat Constituency are borne out at the national level. I would concede that to make TD's more local as seems to be your want? That single seat seat constituencies with a 50%+1 quota might be more attractive as a means to address the "locality" concern. It would have greater knock on consequences however in leaving 49%+ of each such constituency without any representation at all to represent their votes. The current setup is a balanced means of ensuring representation of the broadest political preference.

As for your wondering why we need more of them? We live in a representative democracy with a ratio lain down in the Constitution for TD to population. It is a system that works and the PR-STV with multi seat constituencies is IMHO a far better system than PR-list or the abomination of FPTP. Every person who chooses to vote is entitled to at least see representation in the Dail.

TDs attending funerals is for some of them part and parcel of keeping themselves visible to the their electorate. I dont like it but, I fail to see why that means you can't go to your local councillor for a local issue?

Gloomtastic!

None of the 5 TDs in DBN represent my views. It’s just same old, same old. The whole system is rigged to allow this to continue and the people fall for it every time.

Podge_irl

I'm afraid if not one of SF, FG, FF, SD or Labour represent your views, your views just aren't really very mainstream and won't be represented in any political system.

Such a shame that people continue to "fall for" democracy. I do yearn for the days of feudalism myself.

Gloomtastic!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050704#Comment_121050704

There used to be a great poster on Boards called Scofflaw who explained how the vested interests in Ireland control the democratic process - the unions, the pensioners and the old guard political parties. Thinking outside of the vested interest agenda is not feudalism I can assure you of that. But posts like this only reinforce the status quo.

techman1

When are we going to have a referendum to change the 1 per 30,000 to a more acceptable 1 per 100,000?

The government rarely puts stuff that really matters to referendum, the last really relevant one was 20 years ago when Michael mcdowel put to referendum the automatic right to citizenship of anyone born on the island of ireland. This was accepted by an overwhelming majority, in other words this automatic right was changed to qualified on parents also being irish or ni nationals.

Ever since the government has never put anything important to referendum again .

Another ridiculous factor is that this representation quota is not based on the electoral register but on simple population statistics. Therefore you could have thousands of refugees or people with no right to vote in a constituency and these are all included in that 30k figure.

The constitution was written by de valera in 1930s and it is ridiculous that this is being used as the basis to redraw and increase TD numbers in a totally different world a century later

They always get a retired judge to chair these reviews they are as establishment as you could get

Archduke Franz Ferdinand

“Stephen Donnelly light” aka Sen Malcolm Byrne in Gorey is apparently happy with the redrawing. Don’t count your chickens son. You’re still an obnoxious te?€

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050966#Comment_121050966

Voters "control" the democratic process, outside interests influence it. Old people being selfish pricks is unfortunately perfectly democratic.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051122#Comment_121051122

There was nothing remotely important about that referendum, it was the perfect example of the opposite - a referendum on a social issue to distract from actual government failings.

I rather suspect great swathes of the electorate would view the gay marriage referendum and abortion referendum rather important also.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121050689#Comment_121050689

I agree with you Gloom. I'm in DBN and have no interest in the nonsense peddled by SF but have to accept the fact that Denise Mitchell is a shoe in for a seat in the next Dail and will likely bring a running mate in with her. Despite the fact that she will receive very few votes from Clontarf/Killester/Raheny. The constituency boundaries are massive and we end up with a rainbow of representation, as was exactly the case in DBN last time out when we elected 1 each of FG, FF, SF, SD and Lab.

techman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051385#Comment_121051385

If there was nothing important about it why was it accepted by a vast majority of the electorate I think 90%. That was a much bigger majority than any referendum since then?

markodaly

The question here is, will these extra TDs make our democracy better and make our political system more accountable where we get better run services?

The answer is absolutely not.

What is an eye opener is how much time TD's themselves have spent on submissions to the EC time they should be spending on National Policy.

My 2 Cents.

Get rid of multi-seat consistency.

Install a list system to work with those voted in at the ballot box.

jacool

@markodaly I disagree with getting rid of multi-seat consituencies. We could end up like the UK, where the Lib Dems got 11.5% of all votes, but only 0.017% of the seats. Compare their outcome to that of the SNP.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051426#Comment_121051426

What has that got to do with the importance of it? What massive issue did it solve?

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051731#Comment_121051731

Your point is valid and correct, however Lib Dems got 1.7% of the seats, not 0.017! You've forgotten to multiply by 100.

jacool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051871#Comment_121051871

Ex Maths teacher and all !!!! Probably explains the "ex" part! Thanks !!

zell12

Govt tried to get rid of the PR-STV system enshrined in our bunreacht, twice. And failed, twice. Thanks grandpas! We could've been stuck in two party land forever, like US/UK/etc

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051426#Comment_121051426

The 27th Amendment (To limit the right to Irish citizenship by birth) vote in 2004 was passed by 79.17% of the total poll, not 90%.

The 38th Amendment in 2019 (Removed the requirement of a period of separation before proceedings for divorce are initiated, and allowed for recognition of foreign divorces.) was passed by 82.07% of the total poll.

By your logic, changing the period of separation before divorce was more important than the citizenship change.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051731#Comment_121051731

I hear you but that is more to do with FTTP rather than having single seats in a constituency.

I'd favour a system where the national poll on election day is then used to elect people from a list system.

So for example, if the Greens got 5% of the vote and say there were 100 TDs to be elected from a list system, then 5 of them would go to the Greens and so on.

You get a more proportional representation and not local TDs who are just into fixing potholes. I think you would get a Dail that is more national-focused rather than local-focused. Multiple seats I feel enable a type of clientism that exists in our electoral system.

Gloomtastic!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121052364#Comment_121052364

So you vote for the party as opposed to the politician? Would somebody please think of the Healy-Raes!?!?

jacool

@markodaly Fair enough. There's democracy in the option you proffered alright. Does any country do this presently?

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121052364#Comment_121052364

Best option is a mix - 50 elected in single seat STV constituencies to ensure local representation and 50 elected from a list designed to make it to the % share of the vote - in the UK example above the Lib dems may have won just 1 seat and topped up with 10 from the list. The tories on the other hand won 56% of seats on 43% of the vote, so in 50 FPTP constituencies could have won 28, and would then get +15 from the list. The SNP could have won 4 seats but only got 4% of the vote so no additional seats.

Gloomtastic!

Won’t a list system give absolute power to the party leaders?

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121052684#Comment_121052684

Require that the list and order get published in advance. And you either get elected from constituency or list. The list not to be a back up to failing to getting elected on your own right

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121052436#Comment_121052436

Well, our current system emboldens the likes of the Healy Raes. Our system is dominated by independent TD's who are usually anti-everything and populist everything.

However, id favour a hybrid system, one that incorporates you voting the local politician and list system. A number of countries operates such a system I think.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121052438#Comment_121052438

From memory, NZ does something like this.

Australia is a bit like that too but it's more where the list system comes into effect in their Senate, which has actual powers, unlike ours.

The lower house in Australia is usually dominated by 2 parties but the upper house can be a right mishmash of diversity, people and parties. But you aren't passing any legalisation unless you get both houses to agree.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Senate#Current_Senate

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121052439#Comment_121052439

Yes, I agree. Sorry I should have been more clear.

Bobtheman

We have way too many independents- 23. We need a few people outside the party system but 23?

We should have never gone beyond 4 seaters as it allows too much cute whore independents to get on the expences band wagon.

Actually just have them all 3 seaters

We are failing to run the state effectively in key areas.

I'm as middle class as they come but time for SF to have a go.

They can't do much worse on housing and health.

Plus unlike FG/FF they owe the medical and legal professions SFÁ

Bobtheman

The idea above of a mixed list plus constituency model is not bad but we need powerful dail committees.

Just leaving the Dáil unrerformed would negate any electoral reform

Risteard81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121051122#Comment_121051122

No such thing as an "NI" national - only an Irish national as this is the Irish nation.