Unintended consequences of the m20 and cork NRR

veryangryman

Would it be possible that corks flights get consolidated to shannon and make that airport use its capacity more given that it would be only hour away.

Recall what happened galway and Waterford post motorway boom.

legend99

Have always wondered the same - the motorway would bring the two airports so close in journey time that there may only be a future for one. However, given that the bigger population is in Cork and that it currently has higher passenger numbers, would Shannon not be vulnerable one with it's traffic moving to Cork?

cjpm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121028056#Comment_121028056

A friend was telling me…

Cork airport is built on top of a fog prone hill due to a political stroke more than 60 years ago. A superior site in Carrigtwohill was overlooked.

So the main runway which isn’t particularly long is not facing the prevailing winds in the area. Hence bumpy landings in high winds.

Shannon has one of the best runways in Europe.

I know where I’d prefer to be flying to and from.

magicbastarder

Would galwegians not also prefer consolidation in Shannon?

veryangryman

Shannon has all the above advantages plus a larger radial hinterland than Cork

namloc1980

The alternative site for Cork airport was far superior south of Carrigtwohill and Midleton, near a railway line and today there is excellent road infrastructure. A mostly flat site with endless potential but due to political interference and shady decision making, the site on the hill was chosen. An incredible shame but not surprising in this country.

legend99

Fair points. If they are only an hour or so apart, you would wonder alright about what it means for the future..

Addmagnet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121029047#Comment_121029047

Driving your own vehicle, door to door, yeah about an hour - but it's feckin' tortuous on public transport.

kub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121029003#Comment_121029003

Regarding the proposed site in Carrigtwohill

When airport sites are been chosen, then prevailing winds are the biggest consideration.

It is on record that when the tests were carried out at Carrigtwohill that there was an issue with the land north of the suggested site, that land was hilly and therefore was ruled out as planes could not operate landing against the prevailing Winds at that particular site.

There was already a flying club operating at where Cork airport is now situated and that site was deemed the best option at that time

These are facts, anyone can check them out, but if posters here get some sort of pleasure out of suggesting brown envelopes or whatever else, then go right ahead but the above are the facts.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121029587#Comment_121029587

This is on the record in the Oireachtas as quoted from the expert report into Ahenesk at Midleton:

"Ahenesk has the advantage of being comparatively close to a railway station but not bounded by a railway line. Similarly, it has easy access from a main road but is not bounded by such a road. The surrounding country is open and there are no high hills. A certain portion of the ground will require drainage and a small rectification of the contours on the higher portion of the ground will be necessary. Removal of the banks which cut up the site and the diversion of a road are also entailed.

We are quite satisfied that in this site Cork has an airport adequate for both present and, as far as can be foreseen, future requirements in suitable surroundings and within easy reach of the city. We believe this to be the only site on which a practicable and entirely satisfactory aerodrome could be made at a moderate expenditure and within a reasonable period of time."

kub

The below is from a book called ' Cork Airport An Aviation History ' by Michael Barry and released in 2001, from it ;

The survey results were narrowed down to two locations, the site at Ahanesk, near Midleton and that at Ballygarvan, five miles south of Cork.

Both the Ballygarvan and Midleton sites were compared under the headings or cost, approaches, meteorological conditions, runway grades and convenience of location. With regard to cost, it was felt unecessary to take into account items such as land acquisition and enclosure, buildings, aprons, concrete runways, lighting etc., which would be about the same on either site. This also applied to the cost of drainage. The cost of the full development at Ballygarvan was estimated at around £ 100,000 for grading , levelling and grass runways only. Similar work at Midleton would have been £ 14,000 less.

With regard to approaches, Ballygarvan was found to be superior to Midleton. The degree and importance of the superiority of Ballygarvan in this respect was felt to be a matter on which aeronautical opinion should be obtained. The survey proposed not to express any opinion on the relative merits of the two locations from a meteorological point of view because specialised expert advice was needed. It was considered that the runway grades obtainable at Ballygarvan were definitely better than those at Midleton and finally, since Ballygarvan was only 5 miles from Cork City and Ahanesk 12 miles, the former was superior from the point of view of location, Summing up the survey findings, the Airport Engineer in Charge from the Board of Works recommended that, subject to expert advice on meteorological conditions etc,. That the Ballygarvan site be chosen. The survey was submitted to the Airport Construction Committee of the Department of Industry & Commerce on 6th August 1943 and was adopted.

The Committee affirmed that, excluding the meteorological conditions, the advantages of the Ballygarvan site outweighed Midleton.

With this information to go on, the Airport Construction Committee recommended that weather observation stations be set up as soon as possible at both Ballygarvan and Ahanesk to gather information over a period that would include the winter months. Nothing however was done until the war was over. Meanwhile, a further inspection of likely aerodrome sites was carried out by the Board of Works early in 1944 but Ballygarvan still remained the choice, subject to meteorological reports.

The Meteorological Service set up temporary observing stations at both locations on 16th September 1946. Micheal Murtagh was in charge of the Ballygarvan station and Ahanesk was under the supervision of John Doherty. Both officers had been transferred from Shannon. The winter of 1946/47 was one of the severest for many years and the observations for Ballygarvan were made in an area of Lehenaghmore, which was part of Cottrell's farm. Cottrell's House stood in its own grounds and had its entrance and driveway close to where the main entrance to the airport now is. The farm house was situated about four hundred yards from the road. Cottrells were large farmers who, at that time, supplied milk to the south side of the city.

Meteorological observations for the six months period October 1946 to the end of March 1947 at both Ahanesk and Ballygarvan were the subject of a meteorologist report early on May 1947. The report gave Midleton the advantage. Of course the winter of 1946/47 had been one of the worst for many years. The May report of 1947, however pointed out that a series of observations covering a much longer period than six months would be necessary to really determine the relative suitability of different sites from a meteorological point of view. Observations continued at Ballygarvan for a further three months.

Meanwhile the building of Dublin Airport commenced in 1937 and the first passenger service flight was on 19th January 1940. The end of World War 2 saw the opening of Shannon Airport. Cork was the poor relation and was to remain so for many years.

The people of Cork were weary from hearing of the many plans and surveys being carried out. In a sense of desperation in 1947, two prominent Cork business men, George Heffernan and Dan Cullinane came together and decided that, as the authorities were not going to provide Cork with an airport in the foreseeable future, they themselves would do so by private enterprise.

It was decided to establish an airfield at Farmers Cross where Cork Aero Club did their flying. A company was formed called Cork Airways Company in which both Heffernan and Cullinane had equal share. The company's secretary was Jean Davies, who was attached to Heffernan's Shipping Agency. A lease of the land was obtained for 25 years and an aerodrome licence was sought early in 1948. Before it could be granted, the Dept of Industry and Commerce laid down stipulations, one of which was the removal of the plantation of trees dividing two fields. Some trees has also to be removed along the south east boundary

Work was carried out very promptly, two fields were made into one and the ground was leveled. Only one grass runway was available measuring 860X260 yards at its widest running almost East West. A cross runway running almost north south could be made to a length of about a mile, should business necessitate such development. When the required work was carried out, a licence was granted for the field on a restricted basis. Private and charter flights could operate but not scheduled services. There were certain restrictions as to how and when charters would operate such as in day light hours only, etc. Cork Airways Company was seeking much more than that but at least it was a start.

Farmers Cross airfield was officially opened on the afternoon of Sunday 9th May 1948 by Liam Cosgrave, Parliamentary Secretary to An Taoiseach.

The company pressed ahead with private and charter flights ad governed by its licence.In the charter area, a considerable amount or success was achieved and the marketing of the airfield was done very efficiently. This, however, was totally inadequate to make it commercially viable and Cork Airways Company sought a licence to run scheduled air services. Cambrian Air Services, Cardiff, who had operated several charter flights to Cork had offered a daily service between the cities in April 1949. The Department of Industry and Commerce would not grant a scheduled air services licence on the grounds that the facilities available at the airfield were inadequate for scheduled operations because they did not include meteorological and radio services or sufficient approach, taxiway and runway lighting in instrument flying conditions.

So far as Cork Airways was concerned, it was a case of the chicken or the egg- which came first. The company couldn't provide the necessary capital for the required facilities until business warranted it through scheduled services and those flights couldn't materialise without the required facilities. Meanwhile a report came out, which the Government had sought from Aer Rianta, who at the time managed Dublin Airport. The main conclusions drawn with regard to commercial possibilities of air services to and from Cork, were that a Cork - London Air service would be a fairly sound commercial proposition and that if Aer Lingus was to undertake regular services through Cork, night flying facilities would have to be provided in addition to the usual airport aids.

Many felt the Government was paying lip service to Cork's requirements. It wasn't of course that straightforward. Apart for Amy arrangements entered into, the equipment of an airfield by the state to meet international standards was costly and finance was a scarce commodity in 1952. Also, in fairness, the site at Farmers Cross had never been chosen by the state as one suitable to build Corks international airport. Mr Lemass had stated in The Dail some time previously, that in relation to where Cork Airport should be located, he had set up an enquiry and he awaited the findings

The Committee reported in July 1953 that, on balance, Ballygarvan was a better site than Midleton. On 6th January 1954, the Minister recommended to the Government that an airport for the operation of scheduled services to and from Cork city should be constructed at Ballygarvan and that it should have concrete runways. Midleton renewed its agitation without success. It was the end of the line too as far as scheduled services were concerned at Farmers Cross, although Cork Airways Company continued with their chartered operations up to the time the new airport was opened.

Despite all the arguments put forward in its favour, Farmers Cross Airfield would never had been suitable for development as an international airport worthy of the State's second city. However, there is no doubt but that Cork Airways Company pioneered what became a very long struggle following the end of World War 2 before Cork got its airport. More important still, it must never be forgotten that two private Cork citizens, George Heffernan and Dan Cullinane, put their own money into a project that provided the people of Cork and surrounding areas with an airport for twelve years when all they had been getting ipnto then were empty promises. Not one penny was made out of Farmers Cross airfield. In fact it always operated at a loss, which was borne by the generosity of the airfields two directors.

In 1960, the year before the new airport was opened at Ballygarvan, Cork Airways Company wrote to the then Minister for Transport& Power, Mr Erskin Childers seeking to recoup the losses they had suffered during the 12 years that Farmers Cross had been opened. It amounted approximately to £ 3,900. That request was refused.

cantalach

Given that the historical data show that the prevailing wind at Cork Airport is pretty much directly across the main 16/34 runway (https://www.windfinder.com/windstatistics/cork), did they ever consider extending the existing 07/25 cross runway to the west? The land slopes away far more gently in that direction than it does at either end of 16/34. Note the relative absence of contours below. I guess one thing that might kill it is that the most commonly used approach path (to rwy 25) would be over some of the better-healed parts of Douglas.

KrisW1001

The story I heard was that this extension was proposed in the 1980s to accommodate 747s, but a politically well-connected local landowner effectively killed it. Also, the operators of Dublin airport would not have been keen on the idea of Cork being able to offer transatlantic flights. (Shannon already did,of course, but until the Limerick Tunnel, Shannon was very poorly located for access to the big tourism magnet of the South West).

But on the topic, no I don't think N20 will have much effect. The latest generation of widebody aircraft can operate on Cork's relatively short runways, so the big advantage of Shannon isn't so big anymore. If some plans come good, though, it will actually be possible to get to Shannon airport from Cork city by rail, but not to Cork Airport.

The committee that chose the current site of Cork airport never considered the prospect of mass air travel, and so the possibility of needing a rail link was irrelevant to their decisions... if it had been, it would have swung the decision to Midleton, I think. In the 1950s, if you were flying, of course you had a motor car. (The other thing they didn't consider was mass air travel and mass car ownership, and the problems that caused with access roads and parking)

Fred Cryton

The M20 is exciting from a regional balance perspective. Essentially creates one "super-city" of Galway - Shannon - Limerick - Cork all within 60-90 minutes drive. And a combined population roughly equal to greater Dublin.The whole region could be marketed to IDA clients as one megalopolis.

Now if only we didn't have the Greens in power who hate building roads.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121033875#Comment_121033875

a city 180km across with a population of about 1.5m?

to say you're playing fast and loose with the idea of what a city is, blows the concept of an understatement out of the water.

Fred Cryton

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121035894#Comment_121035894

You need to think bigger than our cities (which are barely towns really on a global scale). Bear in mind half the globe has barely heard of ireland, another third don't know where Ireland is. You have to sell the West cost of Ireland as a single economic region with a single workforce who can commute wherever they might want to locate their factory/office in the region. That's why the M20 is so important.

magicbastarder

you want to suggest people would commute via cork and galway? we need to avoid baking in ludicrous commutes, not promote them.

swoofer

That's not very fair. Is it not the case that people commute from Wexford to Dublin Daily and quite a few travel from Cork to Dublin?? And limerick to Dublin!!

Galway to Cork at the moment is 2hrs 20mins with the motorway that would be less than 2 hours.

magicbastarder

yes, i'm sure it is the case that people do commute those distances. but again, that's not something which is admirable or desirable.

cantalach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121057939#Comment_121057939

What’s wrong with small cities? Aren’t smaller more liveable places better that sprawling conurbations. Infrastructure such as the M20 will play a vital role in ensuring that Ireland can continue to enjoy balanced, sustainable growth over the coming decades (as well as social and cultural benefits). But I don’t think such infrastructure should be thought of as an enabler for the development of a European version of the dystopia that is Shenzhen-Guongzhou.

Also, it doesn’t matter if the vast majority of the World hasn’t heard of Ireland. What matters is that CEOs and CFOs have heard of Ireland. And thy have. They’ve even heard of the small cities: Apple employs 6,000 people in Cork.

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121029003#Comment_121029003

Where exactly was the site? The specific location.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121083392#Comment_121083392

Ahanesk.

I think it's been discussed to death on here previously tbf, both sides of it. But certainly with hindsight it might have been convenient for the airport to have been near the train line.

KrisW1001

The only real issue with Cork Airport’s current location is fog, and the fact that that is pretty much impractical to service by a rail link. Cork City lies in the space between two fairly high East-West ridges. Cork Airport is on one of the high-points of the southern ridge. That ensures good steady wind (airplanes need to take off into the wind), but the height creates a risk of fog.

The airport is at an elevation of about 150 metres above sea level - most of the south side of Cork city is below 30 metres ASL, and there’s only 3 km between the Kinsale Road roundabout and the airport, as the crow flies. That's a near impossible gradient for a railway or tram. (For a sense of scale, consider that the viaduct that towers over the Bandon Road is 30 metres high - it would need to be three times that height to be level with the elevation of Cork Airport).

An appropriately modified bus (i.e., lots of luggage space) on a segregated bus-lane (at least on the uphill journey, which is more time-critical) is the best public-transport option for Cork Airport. The existing 225/226 aren’t ideal for this - coaches aren’t the best type of bus for short-distance trips like this, and the frequency is too low at some times, and too high at others.

cantalach

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121096223#Comment_121096223

Upgraded ILS/DME means that fog is less of an issue nowadays than it was in the past. My dad worked at Shannon and regular diversions from Cork contributed a lot to his overtime pay. Another issue for Cork Airport is the direction of the prevailing wind. The main runway 16/34 is literally at right angles to it, which is as bad as it could possibly be:

https://www.windfinder.com/windstatistics/cork

Incidentally, you seem to be implying that airplanes need a wind to take off (“…ensures good steady wind…”). The point is that if there is a wind, airplanes take off and land into it. But if there is no wind, it doesn’t matter. Just this morning in fact, it was so calm that an Aer Lingus flight to Amsterdam departed on northerly 34 followed two minutes later by a Ryanair flight to Faro on southerly 17.

KrisW1001

Yes, I meant wind to take off into... I didn't know that about the runway at Cork... surely this can't have been the prevailing wind direction when it was built? I read that the predictability of wind was one of the factors that tipped the balance for the current site ...

ColemanY2K

For the record I landed into Cork last Saturday afternoon. Visibility was poor so the pilots let the plane land itself or autoland as it's correctly known as. I have flown into Cork a couple of hundred times and that was only the second time I've been on a plane to autoland. Both times at Cork and only a month apart. A wee anecdote which I thought was relevant to the above conversation.

The M20 itself as well as the associated upgrades to rail and freight logistics along the way will really transform the midwest and north Cork areas.

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121028740#Comment_121028740

Then why does Cork have 50%+ more pax than Shannon?

orangerhyme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058310849/unintended-consequences-of-the-m20-and-cork-nrr

I think Corks population is big enough to sustain an airport. Also it's going to keep growing and it has a decent hinterland, over a million.

Likewise Shannon has a decent enough local population with Galway, Limerick, Clare, Tipp and it's close to lots of tourist spots.

The examples of Galway and Waterford are just survival of the fittest. We can only sustain so many airports. I'm surprised Knock and Kerry airports have managed to survive. Kerry in particular is an hour from our 2nd and 3rd biggest airports.

I can see Limerick and Cork growing a lot in next 10 to 20 years, as long as enough housing is built.

I think Cork will surpass Belfast as the islands 2nd biggest city in the near future. Not in population but in economic terms. Maybe it already has.

I'm not sure how to measure this as GDP is obviously distorted.