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Hobby Farm Profits?

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  • 25-08-2023 12:44pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭


    Hi,

    Thinking of buying a farm for sale near me - 25 acre, average land, with 3 col hay barn and few old sheds, crush etc. As a hobby farm only. I work full time.

    Il need to take a loan of about 100k for this.

    My questions is, will this farm actually make money for me to repay the 100k with?

    consider no other expenses (I have access to all machinery etc), and wont be doing any further buildings until all borrowings paid back.



«13

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭epfff


    No



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I would agree, unless you diversify and specialise in a niche or three.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,621 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    No, unfortunately.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,051 ✭✭✭minerleague


    Does it have entitlements? Would take a long time for 25 acres to repay 100k + interest. If you rented it out at 200/ acre + BISS part of entitlement ( ? 50 ?? ) would bring in 6250 tax free - 25 years ?. Just an example of what's possible. If farming yourself ( what type interests you? ) join acres, organic, ANC, etc and if you are in for long haul (very long) I think it could be done.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,241 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    OP is borrowing 100k. What is the interest rate for loans for land these days? It must be north of 6%. The last time I looked was well over a year ago and I think it was over 5% at that time.


    OP don't forget about stamp duty



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  • Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭abnormalnorman


    god!! thought now that it would at least pay off the loan. then how do some families live off just twice as much land?

    how much is stamp duty?



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,241 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    7.5%. You probably want to be allowing 10% for SD + legal costs etc.

    There would be very few "living" off 50 acres. Maybe a few old bachelor types subsisting. Unless they are into something intensive.


    BTW OP, if you are not familiar with matters agricultural, beware the auctioneer shoving articles at you about lads paying 600 an acre to rent it. That did happen a little over the past year or two but was likely (hopefully) an aberration. Don't rush in headfirst and be thinking that that is a floor on the income from your investment



  • Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭abnormalnorman


    thanks. so whats land being rented for on average these days? are land prices going to go down a bit since the dairy sector is now coming back to reality?! or is dairy expected to "take off" again in the near future?



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,241 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    I can't answer any of those questions with certainty.

    Land is basically rented for the calendar year. I mean in the sense that you won't really find any for rent starting 1st Sept for example. People might be looking for it already for next year but in reality the money will be paid next year. I would have to guess that 250 per acre would be a more realistic ceiling next year. But I could be wrong. Depends on how silly and desperate people are. You'll also always get more to rent it for certain purposes, such as spuds/veg, but that is for a reason too.


    As regards sale price, there are other buyers of land other than farmers. There have been a few threads online about randomers wanting to buy land for some reason. Maybe they have money and don't want to put it into housing. Maybe it's speculation. Wealthy people might buy agricultural land for inheritance tax purposes. Auctioneer in this area has a few small parcels up for sale around the place and appears to be asking in the region of 20k an acre for them. So I don't think they are targeting active farmers. None really have site potential as far as I can see either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭abnormalnorman


    so without a niche, say just buying in yearlings for the summer, would you expect to make any profit at all?!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,241 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    You'd make a few quid. But I think your question was more along the lines of paying back the loan and then some?



  • Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭abnormalnorman


    thanks. yes, i was hoping that it might be able to just pay back the loan repayments of the 100k loan that I would need to purchase it, so cover its self basically over the 20 or whatever loan repayment period?



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,241 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    You might be able to leverage off the investment to make it worth your while in other ways rather than income stream such as being able to put down things as expenses or use the income to build up the place. You can make a loss some years on paper to reduce your income tax bill too. I'm not talking about dodgy accounts but genuinely spending money to improve the place.

    You can't write capital cost off against your tax btw. Interest cost you can

    If you want the land and can pay for it, then fire away and buy it. You'll always have it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭abnormalnorman


    could you make say 10k a year profit out of it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭abnormalnorman




  • Registered Users Posts: 19,241 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Possibly. But you could also make a loss.

    There is a poster on here that posts accounts whowing he makes 30k gross margin from cattle on more than double the acres what you are talking about. But they know what they are doing. And the reason they post their accounts is that other posters were skeptical about their numbers.



  • Registered Users Posts: 837 ✭✭✭Stationmaster


    Don't forget also, even if you just make in a year enough to pay the repayments, you may still have a tax bill on top of that if you're working fulltime elsewhere and this could affect your cash flow - the capital repayments on the loan will not be tax deductible - only the intertest.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭epfff


    You haven't the sheds etc to replicate that poster.

    You would also need another 20k to stock 25 acres.

    The big think for me is you have to get the 100k back after tax. If you im high tax bracket it means you need to earn approx 210k to pay the capital alone. That's nearly 1k/ha/yr for 20 yrs part-time farming. Now that is Walter Mitty stuff.

    If the land was in an area where it would command high rent the renters would have it at an unaffordable price trying to buy it themselves already. So rule that out also.

    I don't know now any family getting living farming x10 that amount of land at the moment(ex dairy and market garden). If I rule out retired/money made elsewhere or a bachelor existing not living.

    Weanling to store/weanling to beef at that scale will do well to break even unless you have great knowledge of industry and way with people to get them to sell to you cheap and buy from you dear.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,621 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    He is a top class handler, on top class land and buying animals at very competitive prices.


    He had Cattle out in February or early march this year 😲


    How long is the winter locally OP.


    There are good handlers who make next to nothing off animals as well.

    It's a tough game op Even owning it already.



  • Registered Users Posts: 302 ✭✭Rusheseverywhere


    Have a land loan, the max I could get was 15 years. Think that was kinda standard. Interest rate is 9% now, remember this is commercial land, commmercial rates etc. From what I see very good land making no more than €240 an acre unless Dairy lad wants it has it. also I assume you are puttin money towards it as you will not get 25 acres at 100k. Epfff post is spot on. Farms eat money my own hedge cutting, diggers for cleaning drains, fencing etc, 1000s every year and just pure cost. Even simple things like insurance spoke to a lad with 50 acres and his insurance nearly same as mine.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,334 ✭✭✭80sDiesel


    Hobby farm , borrowed money and profit don’t go hand in hand.

    But if you can ,go for it. I did it a few years ago and whilst it doesn’t make any money ( biodiversity project) I am glad to have it as I will probably enjoy it a lot when I retire.

    Sometimes a parcel of land only comes up for sale once in a generation or more so if it suits ,consider it ,because there might not be a next train.

    A man is rich in proportion to the number of things which he can afford to let alone.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,241 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    I was responding to the OP asking whether he could make 10k off it. I was pointing out that someone who knows what he is doing doesn't make a lot more than that. And also mentioned that people are even skeptical that the other makes that as it would be unusually high. i.e. the OP shouldn't be assuming anything as regards "profit"



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,241 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    9%. Mental given the prices land is going for. I hope you either locked in a fixed rate or got it back at a decent price. Auctioneer looking for 20k an acre round here. That would be about 2k per year in interest for every acre financed (price + SD etc would be ~ 22k an acre)

    If it's across the ditch then we all know that madness can prevail. But non-farmers randomly buying land must be mental if financing any sizeable amount of it. An expensive hedge (no pun intended)



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,796 ✭✭✭✭Furze99




  • Registered Users Posts: 19,241 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    The OP appears to have started a lot of similar threads over the years to be still asking basics about stamp duty



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,009 ✭✭✭Sheep breeder


    who is going to give a 100k loan with out some sort of business plan and away of paying the loan off, coming on the farming forum to see could money be made out of 25 acres and everything to be purchased stock, gear, buildings and sheds etc.😇😇😇



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,332 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Plenty people with healthy off farm incomes will get the cash with little questions asked.



  • Registered Users Posts: 478 ✭✭anthony500_1



    Ive just under double the acres what your thinking of buying. No loans etc on the farm. I've a Good full time off farm job but don't put any of my own money into the farm. What the farm makes, it makes win lose or draw. I'm strict on this as I've a mortgage and a young family so they come first.

    In my situation I've fairly rough ground and keep sucklers....... This could be my first problem.

    I do make a profit year on year but I'd do well to have 7 or 8k at the end of every year left over to pay off a land loan the likes your talking about, without any major purchases or unexpected bills on machinery.

    that is with drawing down a single farm payment and an ANC payment but not signed up to any extra schemes up untill this year as I was not eligible. I'm gone into the new acres scheme which should add another 5k profit to my topline going forward. The figures I'm given are before tax and I'm in the high tax bracket so I'll let you figure out the rest.

    In my humble opinion the land itself won't pay for itself without an outside financial input. If you can afford to pay for the loan from your off farm job and forget the idea the farm will pay for itself it's probably the best way to look at it. Profit and small farms don't generally go hand in hand.



  • Registered Users Posts: 860 ✭✭✭Aravo


    The OP also started a tread a while back "sick of propping up non performing farms". They are going the 180 degrees.




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  • Registered Users Posts: 302 ✭✭Rusheseverywhere


    No is is variable. Still owe 90k, have just over 100k paid back. Last year or two very tempted to sell the lot and give brother and sister there share. Head abroad and open a bar; the ironic thing is I have guts of 1.5 million in land and it makes SFA. Most land I see selling locally is to businessmen who are multimillionaires ie own pubs, in building game etc. Apart from dairy very few farmers buying land at moment. 20k is stupid money even if was best of land in Carlow.



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