Car usage drops by 1% in over a decade

Beta Ray Bill

Read this article this morning.

https://www.newstalk.com/news/car-usage-drops-by-1-in-over-a-decade-1497796

In a nutshell nothing has changed in terms of Car usage.

Not cycle lanes, not public transport, not working from home etc.

We're one of the worst in the EU for Car dependency

A few little bits/point that I thought were interesting from Professor Brian Caulfield

53% of Dubs vs 80% of Non Dubs (Says rural in the article but there are other cities in the country that are not "Rural") are dependent on their cars

35% of all trips are less than 2km yet the DOT says 90% of Car drivers would "consider using walking, cycling or public transport for shorter trips" - doesn't make sense to me. they are conflicting figures.

3.5 million people are within a 15 min walk of a bus stop. - not sure if this shows that the network is/isn't there or if it just doesn't work

Regardless, it's obvious at this point that Paddy probably doesn't like the car all that much, but has to use it. we've a long way to go.

Podge_irl

35% of all trips are less than 2km

Regardless, it's obvious at this point that Paddy probably doesn't like the car all that much, but has to use it.

These two statements appear fairly contradictory. In many cases it would appear the point is "Paddy" moans about using the car but uses it when he doesn't have to anyway.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993796#Comment_120993796

I'd agree with you on that. I wonder is that 2km dropping the kids to school/weekly shop? I'm hoping it's not a commute.

Quantum Erasure

90% of Car drivers would "consider using walking, cycling or public transport for shorter trips"

Yeah, I considered it. And the answer is no.

DownByTheGarden

I used to cycle to work when the weather was nice.

I used to drive when it wasnt or when I had to drop the kids to school on the way to work.

When the fares dropped to €2 for the 90 minute transfer on public transport I started taking the train and the bus to work even if it took an extra 50 mins when it wasnt my day to drop the kids to school.

If those fares go up or parking at the train station had gone up I would have been back in the car to work.

The price was not really worth it for an extra 50 mins.

What can they do to encourage public transport. Make it cheap enough to offset the extra time it takes. Or make it fast and easy and everywhere, like in most modern cities.

No idea what they are going to do for rural travel because the public transport here for rural areas is dire altogether.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993849#Comment_120993849

What can they do to encourage public transport. Make it cheap enough to offset the extra time it takes. Or make it fast and easy and everywhere, like in most modern cities.

In the short to medium term, one of the biggest obstacles to a fast and easy public transport system (i.e. busses) is that people would rather go in their cars which increases congestion and slows down public transport. Any attempt to increase space available to public transport meets huge opposition which usually pricks the ears of local populist politicians, etc.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993921#Comment_120993921

Time to increasde public transport (not just talk about it for a few decades, actually do it) where there is no space needed then like undergrounds or elevated trains. Or even use space that is readily abvailable and have far more buses, better connected trains and buses and free park and ride outside the M50 on greenfield space near stops for proper public transport into the city.

Noone wants to be driving into congested areas. Make it easy and cheap for them to travel on public transport and they will. shock horror. No point having packed public transport that costs them an hour or two extra each day and only goes part way or has to go out of the way to connect to the next leg.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993921#Comment_120993921

Bus Lanes work ok, Cycle lanes don't work in that there isn't the enough people using them (relative to the people using other forms of transport while commuting) to make a difference, maybe they will in a few years.

I think when people object to Buslanes, what they're really objecting to is the bollarded cycle lane that's going in with it. It should also be noted that DCC will continue on building them despite objections. (East Wall road was is the latest to have a cycle lane put in, design doesn't look great)

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993956#Comment_120993956

I never use cycle lanes when scommuting on the bike. Well the odd one I do, but when i get closer in to the city center they are full of grannys and cargo bikes. Easier to just use the road. So I guess I am part of the problem but now you have a cycle lane and still cyclists on the road.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993979#Comment_120993979

The problem isn't people, people will do what people will do.

The issue is one of planning and design.

The usual light touch efforts that have never ever worked, have yet again not worked.

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993921#Comment_120993921

The problem with public transport in Dublin is it all goes through the city center

No cross town

That's why it takes 50 mins longer no mater what time of the day

Not cars and congestion

If you happen to be commuting to the city center it's actually all right

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993952#Comment_120993952

Undergrounds and any big projects will take years even if planned and developed efficiently.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993956#Comment_120993956

Bus Lanes work ok,

In places. You still get left turning cars blocking them, etc. Look at the congestion along Dublin's quays, etc.

You also have loads of congestion where there aren't bus lanes. Where I live, Leixlip, all busses are delayed because of the volume of cars driving through the village. Someone travelling from Maynooth to the city centre will face almost certain delays in Maynooth, Leixlip and possibly Lucan which add a sizable delays to the journey.

Cycle lanes don't work in that there isn't the enough people using them (relative to the people using other forms of transport while commuting) to make a difference, maybe they will in a few years.

The vast majority of cycle lanes are shite and I know that because I cycle daily. When one uses a cycle path, one pretty much has to yield to road traffic many times along the journey. You also get telegraph poles, cabinets, walkers, dogs, cars parked and so on. Then you have surface issues (holes, shores, most not swept of glass, leaves, etc.). As I said, they're shite!

I think when people object to Buslanes, what they're really objecting to is the bollarded cycle lane that's going in with it. It should also be noted that DCC will continue on building them despite objections. (East Wall road was is the latest to have a cycle lane put in, design doesn't look great)

When people object to buslanes, it is for a myriad of reasons but most often it is because they don't want to lose parking spots. Many parts of Bus Connects were forced into changing.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994044#Comment_120994044

The problem with public transport in Dublin is it all goes through the city center

No cross town

That's why it takes 50 mins longer no mater what time of the day

There are loads of routes that travel through the city centre.

Plus before someone mentions it, there are also many 24hour services.

Not cars and congestion

Explain please because any busses I get are held up by people in cars. One notable spot is the approach to Dublin's O'Connell St. It has improved but still is a big bottleneck.

If you happen to be commuting to the city center it's actually all right

It possibly depends where you're going but it could and should be much faster.

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994092#Comment_120994092

Buses going down the quays for instance north side aren't really held up by cars, similar southside

Same up and down O'Connell Street, you can't use Dame Street Trinity either

It's a disaster to go through there by car

The poster above isn't taking 50 mins longer by bus on a route that is the same or similar to his car journey

It's because it's taking him 50 mins out of their way

People transport isn't designed for real life

It wouldn't even be that hard to fix

Timing belt

3.5m within 15mim of a bus stop is meaningless because even if there is a regular service there is no guarantee the buss will stop at that bus stop..whether it be bus is always full after first 2/3 stops so won’t take on any more passengers or lack of punctuality as bus get stuck in traffic due to lack of bus lanes etc.

magicbastarder

isn't fairview a classic example of private traffic holding up buses?

during evening rush hour, everyone queues in the left lane to take the left onto malahide road, buses included, and then the first half kilometre does not have a bus lane (till you get to the junction with griffith avenue.

i know there were plans to CPO front gardens there to widen the road for busconnects, but i don't know what the latest on that is. 30 houses affected - and the way politics works here is that the local councillors will represent the owners of those properties (and they have a right to have their voice heard); but no-one will shout for the people whose lives would benefit from that.

the local councillors in fairview won't care about them - no votes to gain - and the councillors in say coolock will have little sway because it's not their ward.

Chris_5339762

East ticketing is still the one. Online tickets or a tap of the credit card, none of this Leap card half baked nonsense. Proper, integrated ticketing across all of Dublin for instance.

In Munich recently and no-one has to interact with the driver at all on the buses. Dwell times were about 15 seconds. If we could replicate that, it would knock tonnes of time off our routings. But no, we have to tell the driver where we are going, takes about 10 - 15 seconds per person.

A flat rate fare should be mandated by the government tomorrow, that would help for a start. The government should fill any farebox gap that DB are worried about.

homer911

Get cyclists involved in the design of cycle lanes. Surface the darn things so they are not full of bumps and potholes. Put a grip surface on them that wont get icey when it freezes but wont create excessive drag, make them wide enough to overtake a fellow cyclist, put them at road surface level and not up on the footpath and in behind trees, cut back the vegetation so you don't get your eyes scratched out by brambles, keep them swept so I don't get punctures dodging the broken glass, refresh the paint work regularly so people know they actually exist...

Rant over..

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058309788/car-usage-drops-by-1-in-over-a-decade

What proportion of trips can be conducted on public transport in a similar time? You may have a bus stop near you, but there bus there goes to one place and that may not be the place where you want to go. While there are cases where public transport can be substituted easily, in many cases it cannot and people do not want to limit their horizons to where the public transport planners think that they should want to go to.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994309#Comment_120994309

The 90 minute ticket is a huge improvement in Dublin, most people do not need to talk to the driver, they can just tap their Leap card on the right hand validator.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994320#Comment_120994320

Councils are gradulally creating offices to implement cycling & walking projects. However, to introduce new cycling infrastructure for people to replace some of their car journeys with a bike involves taking away road space and we're back to square 1 where you get massive opposition.

More often than not, it has been found that despite the protection offered to cyclists from cars by a line of white paint on the road, more protection is actually needed (bizarrely!) - hence the need for bollards. Nobody wants these but they are implemented simply because people are much less likely to drive into them. However, again you get massive opposition to them even to the point that you get property & bvusiness owners removing them because they want people to lose parking spots. The main problem with these is that they can become cluttered with detritus because they don't get swept.

No matter what way you look at it, in order to increase uptake of public transport and active travel, you more often than not will need to remove road space from cars. In many cases this might be the removal of on-street parking spots. In other cases it might involve removing some or all of a lane of traffic.

The reality is that the car will often be a preferred choice to travel as there are currently few (direct) downsides affecting people. To get those people out of their cars, it needs to be an easy choice for people. Speed, frequency, convenience and to a much lesser extent cost.

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058309788/car-usage-drops-by-1-in-over-a-decade

Ireland hasn't invested in public transport which is a main issue.

Plus we are increasing one thing, our waist

People are lazy, it's easier to use the car than public transport/bike/walk. Ireland is a tiny country and we should have more people able to leave a car at home yet we continue to see numbers coming out daily saying we are not reducing the car usage.

Paddy loves the car, even when they have other options available. This has always been the case and as we get lazier and lazier thats not going to change

TedBundysDriver

Rather sit in my car for an hour than cycle in **** weather like today getting into work smelling like a rat.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993849#Comment_120993849

Or make it fast and easy and everywhere, like in most modern cities.

But it's not fast and easy and everywhere in most modern cities.

Go to any modern city in the world and live as a commuter and you'll find reasons to complain and find that most commuters complain.

I used to go to Dusseldorf for work, a few weeks a few times a year.

I loved the DBhan, the UBhan, the SBhan.

I thought they were really good, cheap, efficient etc.

But the locals hated them.

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994492#Comment_120994492

Same in Berlin, similar in NL. I used them daily and loved the system. It was incredible. yet ask a local and they said it was poor. I hated trying to explain what you got in Dublin. A poxy taxi from the airport. My better half had to take a taxi last night and the entire journey the drivers was revving the car to make the metre go up. Even after asking twice to stop it he just started talking to try hide it. Disgrace

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994320#Comment_120994320

As a 1 - 200km a week cyclist and a 50km a week driver, Id say keep cyclists well away from any road improvement decisions :)

Removing road space is totally the wrong way to go forward. If they had built the metro for instance instead of talking about it for 20 years or more, imagine how many trips that would have taken off the road already. We could be at a point now where a metro was in place and in use and we are now today thinking about making Swords metro stops a hub, with plenty of park and ride and buses and a metro coming and going from lots of different places. If we had done that people wouldnt need to be in a car and if they did need to be they could easily and cheaply transfer on to public transport by now. But no, here we are having just talked and tried to remove roadspace and put in cycle lanes etc and its not working and wont work.

SuperBowserWorld

The only people interested in public transport are those who have to use it.

People who don't need to use it do not care. They really don't care. In fact they think it's hilarious that other people have to use public transport.

There is no public support for good public transport and how this facilitates a society and economy to grow, be inclusive and be fairer.

We don't do the big picture thing in Ireland. Never had. It's all about house prices going up. It's the only metric Mary and Johnny care about.

Mary and Johnny will wring their hands about Johnny Jnr having to pay 10k for accommodation in Dublin or having to drive 4 hours a day to college. But they will do SFA about it and continue to vote for the same people their grandparents voted for. Or that time, little Mary had to get up at 4 in the morning to make a hospital appointment in Dublin. Ah god bless us and save us. And oh, god isn't the parking just terrible around the children's hospital.

And Galway like urban development will just be repeated all over the country.. Amen

ExoPolitic

What did they expect when they don't invest in serious transport infrastructure? Ireland invested in roads since joining the EU, we have an amazing motorway network, so expect people to want to use that because it's the only useful piece of new infrastructure we have.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994469#Comment_120994469

I dont mind getting wet cycling. What i dont like is the extra 15 or 20 minutes i used to have to spend to get a shower in work before work so i didnt stink out the office. And i was one of the lucky ones with a shower in the office. But its yet more additional time to your commute having to get a shower in there. When driving i could have a nice relaxing shower the night before and have a bit of extra sleep in the mornings.

cgcsb

1% drop is good considering that we have no new public transport in that time except Luas Cross city and some town bus routes, we also have a grand total of what, 20km?? of correctly designed cycle lane in Dublin.

It shows that people want to change habits there's just no infrastructure to support that change.

Maybe build proper infrastructure, crazy thought I know, and then greater change will happen.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994517#Comment_120994517

There are no real cycle lanes in Dublin except the coastal route and a few short sections along the canals so not sure how you can conclude that building cycle lanes will not work. It has worked everywhere else in the world it just hasn't been attempted here.

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994526#Comment_120994526

Dublin is a city with loads of small streets suited to cycling and walking etc. Yet Ireland has spent years trying to implement a car based traffic system without the space

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994179#Comment_120994179

A 15 min walk to the bus stop to wait for the bus, or hop into the car for a 10 min drive.

People will always choose the easier option.

Why walk 40 mins to the shop and back when I can drive it in 6 mins?

patmahe

For me compared to 10 years ago I use the car far less. There are no public transport links between my house and my place of work so I have to own a car as work is 16km away, I also have an electric bike that I sometimes use to do this commute. I work remotely 60% of the time so that's a lot of commuting cut down on compared to 10 years ago.

I think things would be similar for most people, you have to own a car because public transport doesn't exist, cycling/walking to work is difficult/dangerous or you have to drop kids to school etc on the way. For most people whether you are doing 1000k or 100000k per year, you are paying your tax and your insurance and the car is outside your door, it will keep you warm dry and safe so of course you are going to use it 99% of the time. For a lot of people its a case of 'I have it so I may as well use it' and until there is a proper (not token) effort to make other forms of transport a lot more viable (and I don't mean simply banning cars from certain areas at certain times) nothing will change.

Build infrastructure like they did in Amsterdam and people will use it, but it must all be integrated, if you cycle your bike to the station, you either need to be able to bring it with you or lock it securely, same with buses. Cycle lanes and footpaths need to be fit for purpose, not painted lines on a road that most motorists ignore or have to drive in anyway because the road is so narrow.

Employers too need to make it easier for those who commute in these ways, my employer provides showers (about 1 per 500 employees) which helps me to cycle in, but I bet its not the same for a lot of people.

Someone needs to be put in charge of integrating all of this and if money needs to be borrowed to make it happen then do it, because the health benefits and reduced medical fees, improved mental health etc. will all be well worth the investment. These projects are proven to be worthwhile investments the world over so all it takes is the political will to do it.

Bottom line, you can't expect people to give up their cars if you haven't given them a real alternative to it in the first place. The lack of a decent public transport infrastructure is not something that is in the hands of the general public, so hazard a guess at where the problems lie.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994238#Comment_120994238

This is a classic example of poor design.

There should be no right turn coming from Clontarf on to the Malahide Road, then just leave that left turn signal green for longer allowing traffic backup around junction with Collins Ave. It has a better chance is dispersing there

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994073#Comment_120994073

Buses are slow. And it's not because of cars, You've a big heavy vehicle with and underpowered engine (emissions) that has to stop and start very often and only has one door to load passengers (2 to offload sometimes). I used the Swords express often. It hasn't a tap on the DART, which can carry more people, load faster, accelerate quicker, etc

Buses are not the answer. If you're just going 3 or 4 stops then yeah, buses are great. But anything over 2 or 3 KM at the crow flies isn't going to perform well.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994560#Comment_120994560

That's actually a really good point. Like if I had a brand new Car that I'd paid €50k for, I wouldn't be leaving it in the driveway while I hop on a Bus to work.

Very hard to see a solution, given the way things currently are

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994560#Comment_120994560

And yet if you built the Metro years ago so many people would be using it now. Perhaps even one or two who never used it before.

Build it properly first. It will get used if you build a useful infrastructure. When its used, people will like it if you do it properly, and will actually prefer it to the car. Thats how you get car use down. You give a useful alternative, not 30 years of plans and sticks.

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994759#Comment_120994759

Dont buy the 50k car and get the bus. Save the 50k

is that not an alternative?

SuperBowserWorld

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994773#Comment_120994773

I've been commuting all my working life via public transport... wasted years of my life.

Thanks to COVID and nothing else I can work from home.

That's Irish planning for you.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994633#Comment_120994633

Does inner city Dublin have space for cycle lanes though? Not sure I'd fancy going down the quays, Dame Street or O Connell street on a bike, tbh.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994801#Comment_120994801

Absolutely is, but the trade off is this years of your life waiting on Public transport.

What's more important to ya €50k or not spending 1000 hours sitting on public transport over 5 years (If you're busing it that is). If you make more than €25 per hour the car is a better option. (as ridiculous as that seems)

gooseman12

The same arguments always come up, "its faster for me to drive and costs less".

Until car use in cities is slower and costs more, people will not change. Less car lanes and congestion charges/tolls are the obvious solutions on both points.

Until car users are sitting in traffic for ages waiting and paying for the privilege while watching the buses/trams/cyclsts fly by as they wait, nothing will change.

For me, this is the only solution for our cities.

Getting people out of cars in rural areas will be next to impossible due to our low density rural sprawl, only changes to our planning system can resolve this and even then it would take generations.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994836#Comment_120994836

you could flip the question and ask, does inner city dublin have space for car lanes? if it does, you're basically arguing for the primacy of cars.

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994875#Comment_120994875

I have two option to get to work. Now I do only have 2 days a week

Option 1 is car. Which takes about 90 min+ at rush hour to and 90 min back, without a crash or event on

Option 2: Train and Luas. Circa 90 mins as well. Now the difference is from a money point of view the public transport is cheaper and also I dont have to pay for parking

In terms of waiting around its little to non waiting around. I get off train and walk across to waiting Luas, same on way back.

The issue I have, which is really annoying. To get to the train I have a 5 min drive. My preference would be to cycle but its a small back road which loads of people have figured out it is a back way into a few commercial estates. So the road is a time bomb in morning and evening with cars going way above the speed limit to get to/from work. It's so dangerous a few older neighbours who are retired will time so they dont have to go out on road in morning/eveing time during this rush. Awful sitution to be trapped in your house because its not safe to drive on a small road to get to a village etc.

If those cars got taken off the road it would be safe to cycle for me and the children in the area who are also driven 5 mins up the road

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994894#Comment_120994894

It doesn't cost less to drive. It's more convient and people are willing to write off the cost. Plus I again refer to laziness

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994931#Comment_120994931

You and I are lucky that we live near to rail transport (which is proven at this point).

I did say busing it, if you were to Bus from where you live how long would be looking at?

gooseman12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994936#Comment_120994936

I agree, it is just a perception of costing less, but until this perception is removed via extra direct costs people won't change.

If they are hit both in time and money people will change, some won't (and probably never will) but most will

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994955#Comment_120994955

No idea, they have a bus but i don't use for the simple reason it is too slow. Why is it slow? well the bus lanes are full of cars because the roads are too small for all the cars

I know DCC are putting in a bus lane monitoring system and hopefully that will resolve it

Yes I am lucky, but when I discuss about putting trains into other parts of the country people don't want them, instead we are sitll in the "build the road" mentality which I thought was gone with the last generation

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994963#Comment_120994963

The cost of cars has gone up and up and up and up. Fuel is up, insurance is up, service costs are up, pruchase costs are up, oarking is up, tolls are up. The only thing that has gone down in reality is tax.

Yet people still pick it.

Meanwhile a 90 min pass on train/luas bus is 2 euro

SuperBowserWorld

Just see today ... 2 kids killed in road traffic accidents yesterday. There has been an increase of road deaths of 30% since 2019. Also, how many more horrible serious injuries.

I dunno. I think we lose the run of ourselves when ever we get some extra money in this country. It's rarely invested in anything long term. Just new cars etc etc etc.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994928#Comment_120994928

Oh, I'm in agreement with you: personally, I'd be in favour of banning or severly reducing non-essential personal motor transport for non-residents from the city center. Realistically, though, that's unlikely to happen.

magicbastarder

How many public car parks are within a few hundred metres of Grafton Street? Within what is essentially one of the most pedestrianised zones in Dublin? Brown Thomas, the bankers, two on Drury Street, Stephens green centre, probably a few more. We're inviting all that traffic by having allowed those to be built.