€26,000 repair, could it be the EVSE?

maclek

Five year old 40kw leaf died a couple of weeks ago, local Nissan can't diagnose it but indicate the battery may be bad. They have sent it to another garage. If the battery needs to be replaced it's going to be €10,000. Car is two months out of warranty. Nissan refusing goodwill. Won't be letting that one go.

A 2016 Mercedes C350e was also plugged into the same EVSE charge point, now it's battery has gone too. Mercedes saying the fix is €16,000. Seriously. I can spend €4,000 to replace the battery controller but they're not sure if that will fix it. No way to diagnose the controller and battery separately. Car can not be operated petrol only without a working controller.

First lesson is older electric cars / plugin hybrids are a scam. Get rid of yours before the battery warranty goes.

Second is it possible the EVSE is killing these cars? It seems like a really bad coincidence they both died after being plugged in! It's not like they are plugged and die, they seem to charge ok but die a little while later which doesn't make sense. Maybe the control voltages are bad or something?

Does anyone know an electrician who has an EVSE tester like this: https://calmet.ie/products/fluke-1664fc-ev-charger-kit ?

Any thoughts appreciated!

graememk

The evse is a fancy plug and switch/relay

It has no direct connection to the battery.

It just connects AC to the onboard charger in the car, and tells the onboard charger when it's ready and energizes the relay. The onboard charger then takes power and charges the car. A plug and a switch that the car can control.

It's very very unlikely to be the evse fault. Especially if it has worked for x number of years.

This doesn't help with your problem though. Leaf batteries are repairable and there is independent garages now starting to do ev work.

It's not unheard of normal ICE cars needing new engines either, not that common but it happens.

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058309226/26-000-repair-could-it-be-the-evse

First lesson is older electric cars / plugin hybrids are a scam. Get rid of yours before the battery warranty goes.

Not sure I understand that statement. Why older cars? Not much difference in tech between older and newer EV's.

Second is it possible the EVSE is killing these cars? It seems like a really bad coincidence they both died after being plugged in!

Just to confirm what you are saying, you had two EV's (Leaf and C350e) both plugged into the same dual port EVSE and both cars developed a fault "immediately" after that? Is that what you are saying?

If yes, the obvious thought is that the EVSE had a power surge or some other internal fault that blew the inverter or BMS or some other part of the cars charging mechanism.

Who owns this EVSE? Is it from a public charging company or is this a private EVSE? Have you spoken to them? Is it still being used by other cars and working OK right now?

Is it an AC charge point? If yes, have you tried charging via DC or vice versa?

Oops!

Welcome to the future people......

maclek

Not sure I understand that statement. Why older cars? Not much difference in tech between older and newer EV's.

Older battery tech is definitely worse, especially the leaf with air cooling. The manufacturers know this which is why the older cars have a 5 year battery warranty while the newer ones have 8 years.

Just to confirm what you are saying, you had two EV's (Leaf and C350e) both plugged into the same dual port EVSE and both cars developed a fault "immediately" after that? Is that what you are saying?

No, it's just that they each died within a day of being unplugged from that EVSE. It's not like they were plugged in and the magic smoke escaped, you could draw a direct line to the EVSE as the problem in that case. I just don't want to plug another EV into that EVSE and have that EVs battery go as well! It's a private EVSE.

The evse is a fancy plug and switch/relay

I do understand that which is why I suggested it could be the control lines over or under volting? You'd think the car electronics would be able to protect themselves from that.

It's not unheard of normal ICE cars needing new engines either, not that common but it happens.

Absolutely, but normally the cost of a new engine wouldn't be more than half the residual value unless it was a really old vehicle.

Welcome to the future people......

Exactly!

10-10-20

That Fluke tester is mainly concerned with the earthing/grounding of the AC charger and whether the charger can detect the presence of the EV and react to the charging signals provided by the car. It's not a power-quality tester and as @graememk pointed out the charger only hands off the AC to the vehicle's on-board inverter and lets it do the conversion to DC.

maclek

That Fluke tester is mainly concerned with the earthing/grounding of the AC charger

That's good to know. I have to decide if I want to replace it the EVSE or take a chance plugging another EV into it. I'll certainly make sure if I do plug another EV into it that that EV is still under warranty!

KCross

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120975925#Comment_120975925

Older battery tech is definitely worse, especially the leaf with air cooling. The manufacturers know this which is why the older cars have a 5 year battery warranty while the newer ones have 8 years.

A new LEAF off the shelf today is much the same under the hood as the Leaf from 2013 and the warranty is still 5yrs on drivetrain and 8yrs on battery. Thats on a par with active cooled EV's (e.g. ID.3, Model 3 etc), so I dont think it really holds that there is a big difference between old vs new. The tech is all still much the same.

From latest brochure

And battery cooling in this country doesn't make much difference to reliability. It really only helps rapid charging speed when you are doing multiple DC charging session in the one day and the car protects itself from overheating anyway, so the passive cooling is not a reliability/warranty concern in this country at least.

Anyway, none of that helps you right now.

No, it's just that they each died within a day of being unplugged from that EVSE. It's not like they were plugged in and the magic smoke escaped, you could draw a direct line to the EVSE as the problem in that case. I just don't want to plug another EV into that EVSE and have that EVs battery go as well! It's a private EVSE.

So, a normal domestic 7kW/32A charge point?

I cant see that "blowing" the battery. At worst the inverter maybe.

What EVSE make is it?

They have sent it to another garage.

Not much you can do or any point in speculating until you hear their report then I guess.

Car is two months out of warranty. Nissan refusing goodwill. Won't be letting that one go.

For sure, dig in. The only reason that Nissan could walk away is if they can prove that it was the EVSE's fault. I'd be looking for that proof.

Let us know what the new garage say.

Sabre Man

16k to repair a 6.2kWh battery?

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976637#Comment_120976637

Merc hybrid packs are stupidly expensive from Merc as i understand it.

JPA

The leaf is under warranty or has the 160k km been exceeded?

Padre_Pio

Yep, we badly need independent specialist EV repair shops.

Most mechanics just don't have the training or experience for EVs

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976745#Comment_120976745

John Earls Motors.

Orebro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058309226/26-000-repair-could-it-be-the-evse

Could you give some details on the symptoms of the cars "dying" - e.g. is there a response when you turn them on? Are there errors on the dash etc? Are they just not charging anymore? I'm finding it difficult to understand how an EVSE could blow a battery out. In the case of the Leaf I'd definitely be calling my solicitor on it.

Alkers

Where in the country are you?

Try HB Dennis in airside, swords. They sorted out the HV side of our ampera PHEV after a few other garages couldn't do anything.

maclek

Could you give some details on the symptoms of the cars "dying" - e.g. is there a response when you turn them on? Are there errors on the dash etc? Are they just not charging anymore? I'm finding it difficult to understand how an EVSE could blow a battery out. In the case of the Leaf I'd definitely be calling my solicitor on it.

Both cars won't go into drive, giving various check battery errors. The low voltage system is working fine, ie the lights come on on the dash. They were both towed to the garages.

I do agree it doesn't make sense that the EVSE could do this, I'm just reaching to explain my terrible luck.

The leaf is under warranty or has the 160k km been exceeded?

While there's an 8 year capacity warranty on the leaf there's only a 5 year one if it craps out totally is how I read the brochure above. That's certainly how Nissan is reading it! There's less than 50k on the leaf, around 90k on the merc. Both cars have been extremely well looked after / serviced.

Thank you to people who suggested a couple of other garages to look at, I'll give them a call this week.

SteelyDanJalapeno

Ah this is ridiculous

vicM

"Both cars won't go into drive, giving various check battery errors. The low voltage system is working fine, ie the lights come on on the dash. They were both towed to the garages."

Has the 12V battery been ruled out definitely? IN EVs battery errors would be attributed to the 12V system most of the time. I know you mentioned that the dashboard lights up, but this isn't an indicator that it isn't the 12V battery. Ignore the coincidence of both dying at the same time for the moment

joe1303l

If I owned them, I think that Leaf might accidentally catch fire and by coincidence the Merc would be parked right beside it at the time……

maclek

Has the 12V battery been ruled out definitely? IN EVs battery errors would be attributed to the 12V system most of the time. I know you mentioned that the dashboard lights up, but this isn't an indicator that it isn't the 12V battery. Ignore the coincidence of both dying at the same time for the moment

When I googled the error on the leaf one of the suggestions was the 12v battery. I asked the Nissan garage about this and was told they checked it. Who knows if they did.

vicM

"When I googled the error on the leaf one of the suggestions was the 12v battery. I asked the Nissan garage about this and was told they checked it. Who knows if they did"

I would get confirmation on this from the garage..Did you hear back from the Merc?

kanuseeme

check the 12v on merc also. my dads one was giving problems till he changed it.

Andrea B.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120977847#Comment_120977847

Leaf. Let's ignore what the garage said.

Replace/swap the 12v battery. Away from the garage.

It is now in their interest to prove it is not the 12v, for fear of losing face.

Then evaluate next steps.

SteelyDanJalapeno

Maybe the EVSE has some fault that's draining the 12V, invoking something on the car side that's uses the 12v or something

niallers1

My 24Kw leaf died recently, thought the worst , turned out 12v battery was low ( 9 years old.). swapped it for a new 12v battery and it cranked back up as if nothing happened.

Andrea B.

Every day, there are problems resolved by small enterprises/ clever feckers, that main dealers and suppliers don't resolve.

Recently a friend's van was drinking juice and running rough. Under warranty and dealer throwing parts at it, but leaving him without a van.

Helped by a good mechanic, the chronology coincided with a wing mirror replacement.

Temp sensor in mirror, EGR control....etc.

Main dealers jobs is to get stuff in and out. That's good commercial sense.

No annual awards for solving Seamus O' Badluch's technical problems.

In this Leaf instance, get your car out of main dealer and get an independent recommendation for a second opinion.

Furze99

€26K potential bills - wow, that sure is sobering.

You could buy a brand new petrol hatchback for around that... just saying.

zg3409

The non dealer specialist in Arklow is trained, experienced (especially in leaf) and has access to a database of known issues and fixes and can send parts to UK to be repaired in some cases. They can source second hand parts to fix for a fraction of dealer prices and they have non dealer tools to test and diagnose issues.

Beware they may have a multi week wait backlog of cars to fix.

As said dealers can be terrible at this sort of thing, they often have no experience and they can only supply new parts at crazy ripoff prices.

Running any EV out of warranty is a risk, but similarly running any ICE out if warranty is a risk too. I know plenty of cars scrapped due to engine faults or requiring replacement engines to be fitted. You would not replace an engine in an old car at a main dealer.

kennethsmyth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120977386#Comment_120977386

Nissan can read it anyway they want but they advertise to the normal person that the battery is covered by an 8 year warranty. A legal letter with impending lawsuit may soften their stance. At 10k let them know it will not stand and is worthwhile going forwards if not covered. The 70% that the battery is supposed to keep by year 8 has not been upheld as it is now zero as it stands. Also as mentioned there is another angle with the possibility that the car has been mis advertised with the "8 yr battery warranty".

I'd push Nissan and continue to push. Note your contract is with the dealer not Nissan so while Nissan Ireland would be a party to it the dealer sold you the car.

KCross

I think the OP needs to wait for a diagnosis from the new garage. Its all speculation at this point. The battery is quite likely perfect and its an electronic component (e.g. inverter) that has a problem, in which case it is the 5yr warranty that applies, not the 8yr.

Until the issue is diagnosed correctly I would keep the powder dry on the legal route. Thats a last resort, if Nissan dont play ball, which they absolutely should for a car that's 2 months out of the 5yr warranty.

Warranty is quite often like insurance.... the first answer is often "your not covered, go away". They hope you are meek and walk away or pay up. A few stern phone calls or emails later often resolves it as they realise you wont go away. Go legal (or at least threaten it) if you have to as a last resort.

I wouldn't go to an independent garage yet either. If you want warranty to pay for this you'll need to exhaust all avenues with Nissan first. If you fix it independently you can kiss goodbye to Nissan paying for it. Stick with Nissan for now.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120979935#Comment_120979935

The Nissan Leaf is just 5 years old with less than 50K on it. That's hardly an old car?

You'd have to be concerned that the industry could be happy to move in the direction of planned obsolescence. So as they can keep churning sales.