Why does the train from Dublin to Belfast take so long?

g g murpho

According to the IE website it takes between 2:05 and 2:15 hours.

By road, Connolly to Belfast Station (off peak) takes 1:48.

The route by road is broadly speaking, the same as the rail route.

Using 171 km as the distance according to Google Maps, the car will have an average speed of 95 km/h and the train 82 km/h (using the fastest journey of 2:05).

Yes, the train makes a few intermediate stops on the way but surely with passing loops, allowing the Enterprise ahead and working the clockface Dart schedule around the Enterprise and maybe upgrading the fleet, is there any reason the train can’t do 150 - 200 km/h?

Belfast should be only 1 hr from Connolly.

Jim_Hodge

It's partly due to having 4 intermediate stops but mainly the fact that it is not a high speed line (apparently €15B upgrade plans are in place). The maximum speed the line can take at the moment is 140kmh and that's only in sections. Some stretches north of the border have severely limited speeds. It's like driving by motorway for the car versus the train on an R road. So it's down to major investment in line with what went into the motorways.

bk

The Enterprise can’t overtake DART, so it is limited by DART’s ahead of it that stop at every station.

BTW the max speed of the loco is also 160km/h

There are long term plans to quad track the Northern line, which would free up the Enterprise to overtake the DART’s, electrify the line and increase the max speed to 200 km/h. All part of the recently published All Island rail review.

g g murpho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120974144#Comment_120974144

Does that mean the DART can be brought to Balbriggan or beyond? What’s the timeline for that?

g g murpho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120974144#Comment_120974144

There are long term plans to quad track the Northern line,

What proportion of it?

That’ll involve a shᎥt load of CPOing along the way even if it’s only a few metres either side it’ll still get messy.

Trampas

You better not look at the train to rosslare and driving time

g g murpho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120974157#Comment_120974157

I’ll take that as a challenge 😉

Edit: 1:50 driving vs 3 hrs train 😬

Isn’t it single tracked after Bray?

TranslatorPS

The locos may be rated at 160, but the Northern Line is capped at 145 altogether.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120974150#Comment_120974150

Yes, but under a separate project. DART+ North project that is currently in planning, will electrify the northern line as far as Drogheda. Though Battery powered trains will start running it before the wires are in place.

The projects to quad track the line, electrify the rest of the line are part of a much longer term plan they may well take 20 to 30 years, so don’t hold your breath.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120974144#Comment_120974144

There are plans, but despite a "green" minister I see no indication whatsoever of any actual progress on this. Ireland is sparsely populated and not always suited to rail, but there should be reasonable traffic on this corridor, it is disappointing that nobody seems bothered about realising that potential.

Even quadding some part of the line to Howth and on the approach to Belfast would provide more passing opportunities and that proportion could be increased each year.

g g murpho

It’s just as handy (if not handier) to get the bus.

You can probably catch a bus from Dublin airport or the city centre.

Quicker, cheaper and probably drops you more centrally in Belfast.

bk

Projects like DART+ and Metrolink are the priority as there is far more demand for them and they will bring far more benefits.

Quad tracking even a short section of the Northern line out of Connolly won’t be cheap, easy or quick. It will be a major project in its own right and will cost a great deal.

Add to that all the complexity of having to deal with the Northern Irish government (or lack thereof).

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120974237#Comment_120974237

The bus from Dublin Airport to Belfast Europa Bus centre takes at best 2 hours and up to 2.5 hours. You'll drive it in 1.5 hours easily even at peak times.

g g murpho

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120974293#Comment_120974293

I meant handier in comparison to the train.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120974307#Comment_120974307

It depends on where you're starting and finishing. It's certainly handier if flying in or out of Dublin Airport and want central Belfast. I've done it. When it's late at night and it goes off the motorway for drops at towns along the way, it's a right pain in the posterior. Given a choice I'd drive it any day - Dundalk in less than 45 minutes with services along the way.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120974317#Comment_120974317

Both the Dublin Express and Aircoach services operate direct non stop between Dublin Airport and Belfast. No stopping at towns along the way.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120974332#Comment_120974332

I quoted their times earlier, I was referring to the late night Bus I had pleasure of using last year in that last person's piece

The main issue of handiness stands - it depends on where you're coming from or going to.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120974343#Comment_120974343

I don’t know what late night bus you were on, but it wasn’t DX or Aircoach as they operate 24/7 direct and don’t leave the motorway for other stops. Maybe you were on the Bus Eireann/Translink service which is a multi stop service.

Of course it all depends where you are going to/from. DX or Aircoach won’t be much good if you are going to Newry.

mockler007

The line, like others in Ireland, only have 1 up 1 down line with various service speed and frequencies. Dart, Commuter, Freight and InterCity, all use the same 1 up 1 down track and that isn't including NI Translink commuter services.

Unfortunately, you can't have high speed trains running on the same line as the stopping services do without some restrictions, I believe the steam train that was especially ran in 1987 was faster than the enterprise now by 2 minutes.

There's also viaducts that are low speed, and around Poyntzpass it's quite slow for a section.

The line is limited to 90mph, and locos to 102mph. Which is below what steam engines, like late era 1960s steam engines were capable of running at.

Ireland needs to move to electric, and pronto, the locos are faster at getting up to line speed, with some hitting over 120 mph in 70 seconds, where the Class 201 diesel takes its time, feels like 4 times longer, this would improve times by 20 minutes if 5 stops were on the service.

The new darts are meant to be hybrid, so acceleration should be improved between stops.

Galway, Wexford and Sligo need to have their up and down lines reinstated, as does the Waterford line, it would improve times on services as trains don't have to wait for the oncoming train to pass for it to proceed, with The Navan line and dart underground being of most importance.

They've been talking about dart underground for 6 decades ffs

So many people wasting days of their lives sitting in traffic of spending liner than needed on transport.

You can see how much a 2 up 2 down line improves speeds on the Heuston to Hazelhatch section of the line.

I personally think Athlone should be Irelands major interchange rail hub, as it's bang in the middle of the country.

Infrastructure should be separate from political parties, as it need long term vision, but what do I know, I'm from Donegal

TranslatorPS

I should add that, whatever about the move to electric, I found myself reading a DART+ document about the OHLE planning for the Malahide/Drogheda electrification just a few days back (I was looking for something completely different, but hey, if it's there it's handy). The document clearly stated that the OHLE structures should be designed for a top speed of 145 km/h (line speeds dictate things like wire count, tensioning strength, etc.), and I'd think it's a shame IE aren't planning for 160 where they can. I'm not sure what the standards are in Ireland, but I know Poland (which operates 3kV DC) uses the same wire structure and tensioning structures for anything over 120 km/h, so stating a Vmax=145 or 160 is almost arbitrary there.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120974980#Comment_120974980

Rail has played second fiddle to road in Ireland since the 1960s. And I think it always will because that's the ingrained mindset. That rail is too expensive and buses are cheaper.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120975768#Comment_120975768

Unfortunately Irelands demographics suck for rail. 40% of Ireland’s population is rural, one of the highest percentages in Europe, the norm is around 10% rural. But even worse, our rural population lives in one off houses in ribbon developments up and down every road in Ireland. By comparison in the rest of Europe people in rural areas tend to live in small villages.

All of the above basically makes rural Ireland largely car dependent and rail just can’t compete.

If a person lives a 10 minute drive (30 minute walk) outside the nearest village and there is no path on the road anyway. They are just going to drive regardless of any train in the village.

I’m not saying rail can’t or shouldn’t be developed, it absolutely should and some posts above put forward some great ideas. But folks do need to be realistic about Irelands demographics and what rail can realistically achieve.

irish_goat

Wait til you hear about the Belfast-Derry train.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/cyclist-beats-train-from-derry-to-belfast-thats-embarrassing/30381510.html

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120974238#Comment_120974238

It sin't an either/or, these routes go to different places. The obstacles aren't even financial, they are planning delays. And the state of the NI government has no relevance whatsoever between Connolly and Howth Junction, there is no route selection issue, they just need to get on with it.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976753#Comment_120976753

It will be a major project with lots of CPOing of peoples backgardens and even houses. It will be very expensive to do and will likely to cost a lot of money.

But there is no point in doing all that and spending all that money if the Northern Irish government don't also do the necessary upgrades on their side of the border.

Also keep in mind, there isn't exactly a lot of demand here, demand for the Enterprise is so weak it only operates every 2 hours!

Ireland trains

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120977434#Comment_120977434

Is that frequency due to limited rolling stock as opposed to demand?

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120977434#Comment_120977434

How many of those houses were for sale in the last 20 years? They could and should have been buying them all along and buying ones across the road so as people could be offered these when the time came. Yes it is expensive but it increases capacity, not only to Belfast but to outer suburban services which do not need to stop at every Dart station. They had to put on an extra Enterprise this summer, so there is demand and there is demand for services arriving and departing earlier which are presently jammed up by rush hours DARTs. This project would even allow an airport express with a spur.. By the time all this is done there will be no NI, so the limitations of the NI assembly is no excuse. They need to get on with it, unlike a tunnel it does not have to been done all at once.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120977604#Comment_120977604

Insufficient rolling stock is exactly the reason.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120977982#Comment_120977982

Iarnród Éireann have recently been awarded an EU grant of EUR 1.3m to examine the feasibility of adding additional tracks on the Northern Line out of Connolly.

That will give a far more definitive answer to the question, rather than some of the speculation here.

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/730ad-11million-in-european-funding-for-irish-transport-projects/

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120974144#Comment_120974144

The Enterprise overtakes the Dart every day, doesn't it? It even overtakes a commuter train that serves all stops.

blackbox

A quad line northwards?

How about a dual lines southwards to Wexford and Waterford first?

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120978136#Comment_120978136

There is already quad track on the route used by Waterford trains. Wexford has a problem to be sure.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120978117#Comment_120978117

At Clongriffin and only northbound, and between Skerries and Balbriggan, but again only northbound.

The problem is that they have to crawl behind a DART until they get to Clongriffin.

They need to be able to overtake between Connolly and Howth Junction - to do that you need extra tracks roughly between Killester and Raheny.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120978176#Comment_120978176

I'd say a bidirectional loop for overtaking, between Clontarf Road/UBB6 and Raheny.

TheAnalyst_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120974163#Comment_120974163

Ridicilous. We should just get rid of national trains at this stage. Pointless.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120978047#Comment_120978047

Good. But the study should have been done 20 years ago and the work ongoing now.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120979036#Comment_120979036

Well let’s be honest, there has been no political will to properly invest in public transport in this country for decades.

We are where we are and can’t change the past.

Let’s wait and see what the study says.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120979100#Comment_120979100

I expect that the report will be a glass half full affair, which will be shelved like many other reports.

blackbox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120978159#Comment_120978159

It's only single line to Waterford south of Kildare.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120980000#Comment_120980000

That may be enough. There are over one million people in the direction of the Belfast line, but only one quarter of that number on the Waterford line.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120979036#Comment_120979036

Again the priority over the past 5 years or so are DART+ and Metrolink.

Two projects that together will cost north of 10 billion and will carry vastly more passengers then the Enterprise ever will.

again I’m not saying intercity shouldn’t receive some attention too, but just to explain it isn’t a priority.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120975855#Comment_120975855

This is the crucial point, but we have to start changing it. The only way is a complete ban on one-off houses outside designated villages and towns.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120985075#Comment_120985075

all true but this is a discussion about the rail link between the 2 biggest cities on the island that also passes through 2 of the biggest towns. The service is indeed rubbish but it's not because of ribbon development in Leitrim.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120985378#Comment_120985378

Well actually, that is the reason, if we didn't have ribbon development in Leitrim, then we would have bigger cities and towns, and it would make economic sense to have fast trains between them.

Strumms

According to my research driving to Kilkenny from Dublin takes just 7 more minutes than the train….for one particular time I’m seeing.

1 hr 27 minutes train vs 1 hr 34 minutes driving

it’s incredibly pleasing when you find yourself in France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Denmark and modern, clean, efficient, effective, comfortable and far reaching and fast public transport is just a given….

munsterfan2

I commuted on this line for a number of years, always found the service, setup etc to be very poor. There are nummerous small stations closed - Dunleer, Castlebellingham, Drogheda North etc. and event so the slow train stops at a large number of stations. It's either enterprise or slow, no express / semi-express trains. Enterprise trains regularly get stuck behind DART etc, if you want to go from, say Castlebellingham to Howth Junction you need to drive to Drogheda or Dundalk, get express to Conolly, then DART back out or get local train and stop at every stop along the way.

Simple plan, slow 1 carraige / 2 carraige trains between Dundalk/Drogheda, Drogheda/Howth Junction stopping every where, arrive in Drogheda / Skerries / Malahide 5 minutes before express / semi express where people can change, go backwards / forwards etc. My local train station in Tokyo had a single platform for each line for years and over the space of a few years in the late 90's they built a new station underground with multiple platforms to turn it into a local / express stop and then built a supermarket / apartment complex on top. All done without ever interfering with the 6am to 11pm train service. This could be done in Skerries / Malahide.

Pictures below are the old station ( top right ) and the new shopping station entrance to underground

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120985418#Comment_120985418

it's the most populated corridor on the island, it already justifies a better service.

If we were discussing a train service to Donegal, or the Sligo line, you'd have a point.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120985610#Comment_120985610

But then you look at the Enterprise and see that it operates only every two hours, whichs sort of shows that demand is low. Even Cork to Dublin operates hourly.

Part of the issue is that Belfast and Dublin are so relatively close and already well served by the M1 that again it becomes difficult for the train to compete.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120985801#Comment_120985801

I live in Drogheda and use the Enterprise quite often. It's well used, they just don't have enough stock to extend the service.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120985801#Comment_120985801

also it has a reputation for being slow and unreliable. I do think Dublin/Belfast plus the numerous big towns along the route would justify an hourly, reasonably quick (not high-speed) service and that this would be well used. I remember in the early 90s they were proposing a 90 minute service between the cities, 30 years later and they still have managed even that.

munsterfan2

From when I used the enterprise the following was the case ( not sure anymore ) ... the morning enterprise arrives into Connolly at 9:05, when 8:45 would be far more convenient for people and the evening one that leaves at 16:50 doesnt stop in Drogheda as it would be too busy and is not a commuter service.