The arrogance of the DAA

Sunny Disposition

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2023/08/06/daa-should-abide-by-night-time-flight-restrictions/

Only in Ireland, as the author says.

A State owned body gets planning permission then decides it won’t comply with the terms and it calls on other people to be reasonable!

Reminded me of the GAA getting planning permission for a set amount of concerts, then making an agreement with a promoter for a load more shows, before being brought to heel.

BrianD3

It's classic Ireland but also classic abuse of power. These kind of "requests" to be "reasonable" only work because the planning/local authorities are not respected and are regarded as a joke. To be fair, they bring some of this on themselves but they are also convenient scapegoats.

If DAA had not been correctly paying its employer's PRSI, would it be in the media asking Revenue to be reasonable about collecting what was owed - eh, no..

Seth Brundle

What was more annoying about it was the crap from Ryanair instructing Eamon Ryan to sort it out as if he can wave a wand and suddenly planning issues magically go away.

https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-calls-on-eamon-ryan-to-protect-passenger-flights-at-dublin-airport/

walshb

Mick just loves the sound of his own foghorn

suvigirl

O Leary is correct this time, restrictions between 11pm and 7am are ridiculous.

Midnight or 1am to 5.30/6 am should be enough

myfreespirit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120948825#Comment_120948825

Complete nonsense.

There really should be an entire prohibition on flights in or out for a period of 8 hours between 10pm and 6am.

Why? It's a medical fact that interrupted sleep leads to ill health in humans.

Making money for airline companies and airports must come second to human health considerations.

Collie D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120948825#Comment_120948825

You may be right, you may be wrong. But if this is what you agree to then you stick to it. The Croke Park analogy from Ryanair was BS too.

mondeoman72

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949195#Comment_120949195

If that is the case, can we have a ban on cars on the road outside my house. Regularly awoken by cars in the middle of the night so just put in a prohibition notice to stop them. Maybe I should not have bought near a road/airport

Beechwoodspark

The arrogance of the daa and the wider aviation industry in Ireland is breathtaking indeed.

The approach seems to be that now that the second runway is built, “ah sure t’would be a shame not to use it all day and all night.”

Darby O’Gill nod and wink stuff.

Beechwoodspark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120948798#Comment_120948798

Part of O’Leary’s wider campaign against the Greens specifically and climate realism more generally.

DAngelo Bailey

DAA should abide by the limits they agreed to simple as that.

Economics101

I thought there was already a thread discussing this. There are many busy airports with far more people under or close to flight paths than there are in Dublin. If the health problems alluded to are to be taken seriously, then half the population of London and Lisbon (and heaven knows where else) must be in serious trouble.

Allinall

Health issues are bull crap.

ever heard of triple glazing, ear plugs, noise cancelling earphones, not buying a house beside an airport etc. etc….

Economics101

Imagine if the railways were subject to the same planning conditions that some seem to want. Would there be an annual limit on the number of passengers that Heuston Station could handle (as there seems to be for Dublin Airport). Would trains have to cease running after 11pm in urban areas?

Our planning regime is a case of ridiculous over-reach.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949195#Comment_120949195

And you are assuming everybody works 9-5, and go to bed at 10pm.

That's complete nonsense and as anybody living under a flightpath for years will tell you, you don't hear the planes.

I.R.Y.E.D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949646#Comment_120949646

Take it you mean flightpath, and having lived under one, no you don't stop hearing the planes, unless of course you are going deaf.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949708#Comment_120949708

Yes, flightpath😁

The noise of planes doesnt register after a while, same as all noise. People get used to it and it's not an issue for most

It’s a growing international airport, has been in this location since well before I was born, when sone of the noisiest aircraft in history were being put into operation. There were ultimate plans for runway development, and indeed the much smaller pre-existing north runway hosted the occasional landing of aircraft as noisy as the great BAC 1-11, a great handling small jet aircraft beloved of its pilots for its ability to safely handle very rough conditions. If you don’t want aircraft noise don’t get a house around Swords-St Margaret’s area

https://youtu.be/X4KpVYpLYtw

.

Beechwoodspark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949348#Comment_120949348

This is it in a nutshell.

The requirements should be enforced and daa should abide by them.

I.R.Y.E.D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949720#Comment_120949720

Actually they don't get used to it. Hence why in other countries housing under a flightpath are cheaper than their equivalent not under a flightpath.

Same thing happening already for housing under the new runway in north county Dublin.

The housing around it for the most part is sparse as the DAA objected to new housing especially two storey housing for decades and is often from the early1900s or rebuilds on existing sites.

The owners of St Margaret's golf course for example had plans for a small housing estate on lands they own quashed by objections by the DAA in the early 00s.

Mullaghteelin

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/warning-trade-and-tourism-could-suffer-as-dublin-airport-told-to-comply-with-planning-curbs-on-night-flights/a728708145.html

This is a strange take on this story. The Indo suggesting that if the DAA adheres to planning law, "trade and tourism could suffer". A headline very sympathetic to the DAA.

We just had the busiest day in Dublin Airport history over the weekend. But the DAA obviously desires it to be busier again, with the likes of the Indo cheering it on from the sidelines.

At the very very least, this is a massive two fingers to the green agenda.

DAngelo Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949763#Comment_120949763

Yeah nice and simple I mean does Dublin Airport really require flights at 3 and 4 a.m?

Beechwoodspark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949938#Comment_120949938

No well run airport should need to run flights after 11 pm at night.

The exception is flights that are delayed en route. Fair enough. Let them land and fine the carrier.

Damien360

One of Europe's biggest airports, Frankfurt airport,has night time flight restrictions.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949195#Comment_120949195

10 pm ? Sorry that’s not going to happen. It’s not logistically possible to shoehorn the complete operation of an airport and it’s airlines and clients into a situation where one third of a day is basically shut down on them.

there are simply not enough stands / gates, terminal facilities, checkin desks etc to achieve what you are suggesting, effectively, efficiently or safely.

I count 40 commercial passenger flights due to arrive into Dublin after 10pm tonight, a Monday night, there are a handful of departures in addition.

Trying to push all that pre 22.00 ? On top of the other departures and arrivals ? Sorry, the airport as a facility wouldn’t be able to accommodate it…

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949958#Comment_120949958

twice as many runways as Dublin and multiple more parking stands then Dublin… it’s makes Dublin look like Knock.

suvigirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949946#Comment_120949946

Of course they need to land after 11pm, that's a joke.

I worked in the airport in the early 90s and there were plenty of flights landing well after midnight, why is it an issue now?

irishgeo

I moved right beside a railway line a few years back in college. It was at the bottom of the garden.

First week the early morning train woke me every day. The next it didn't. You get used to the noise.

This is all about compensation. I wonder who the residents are. Is t the serial noise objector?

The planning process was completed years ago and plane and engine noise has moved on. It should be revaluated again using the new planes and engines.

Edit: Clarity.

Dr Turk Turkelton

To be absolutely fair anyone that was living in the vicinity of the airport before planning permission was applied for should be compensated.

I'm taking about the 1930's. Everyone else can fcuk off as they had a set of eyes and ears to see and hear the giant airport in the vicinity of where they were buying a house.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949958#Comment_120949958

They are letting flights go at 5am. DAA don't want flights at 3am they want flights from 6am so people can get to meetings etc in Europe.

On the noise. My Sister moved to beside the airport. Whenever we'd visit we'd be constantly looking up as aircraft took off, she never noticed after the 1st week or so.

kirving

I lived near a very busy road. During planning, there was supposed to be earth banks, trees, etc. planted to reduce noise, but surprise surprise it never happened.

But very rarely was my sleep was disrupted, you become immune to the noise exceptionally quickly. Then I moved to rural Ireland and the silence is what disturbed my sleep, any tiny noise and I was awake wondering what was happening.

Economics101

Interesting for the NIMBYs to cite Frankfurt: 11pm to 5sm is 6 hours closure, They want 11pm to 7am, that's 8 hours. Can they count?

Damien360

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120951482#Comment_120951482

7am is not feasible, it's too late. We are on the edge of Europe. 5am or 6am is more like it. Out of curiosity, how many flights does Dublin currently have between 11pm and 6am ?

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120951233#Comment_120951233

DAA don't give a single shimmering shiny fcuk about anybody's meetings or anyone in Europe. They are looking to make money, end of story.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949472#Comment_120949472

Our planning regime, like a lot of other laws in this country and the civilised world, stem from having to restrict people who are taking the piss. We didn't start at the beginning and just start making up laws, regulations and codes etc, just for the fun of it. It's because people were pushing the boundaries of what's acceptable, so had to be curtailed.

e.g......Planners didn't just ban commercial premises in housing estates for no good reason. Someone decided to turn their house into a piggery/car repair shop/welders one day and the neighbours weren't happy, so no more piggeries/garages or welders in housing estates anymore. The rule didn't exist until someone said "I'm doing this.....fcuk everybody else" and now we have a new rule. It's currently not illegal to stand on O'Connell street wearing a mankini, playing Pink Floyd records, but if you do it often enough or get enough people to copy you, then it will be soon.

The point I'm trying to make here is that planners are, essentially, referees. They're tasked with weighing up the owner's needs and finding an acceptable balance with the rights of those who are affected by the development. If that seems like over-reach, then the reason for it is because someone previously tried to wrangle their way out of the old rules, usually by taking the piss.

If flights are banned between time X and time Y, I bet you €500 it's because someone, at some point or another, tried to squeeze as many flights as they could into those timeslots.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120949958#Comment_120949958

i've been bussed from dusseldorf airport to cologne twice due to the evening aer lingus flight not making it in on time to get turned around before 10pm - after which it's not allowed take off again. they diverted to cologne in each case to avoid the possibility, when running late.

89897

Tomorrow morning there are 45 flights taking off before 7 and 20 arriving 11 say we average 200 passengers per plane, thats 13,000 people no longer travelling through the airport at that time. If this is enforced then thats some huge number of job loses for DAA, airlines and all other staff involved in the airport.

Yes the DAA should never have agreed to this in the first place but Fingal COCO will shoot themselves in the foot if this is enforced as I would imagine a large number of those workers live in the area.

Its absolutely crazy for anyone to expect an international airport, the biggest and busiest one in this country to have such a restriction and still operate in the way the country needs

DAngelo Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120957087#Comment_120957087

The DAA agreed to these restrictions at the time it is extremely disingenuous for them to turn around now and seek to change them.

89897

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120957121#Comment_120957121

While I see your point on its what they agreed to, I think its entirely ridiculous to want the loses of potentially 100s of jobs because DAA = Bad!

Economics101

I have read (in the Irish times so it must be true 😍) that the permission granted by Fingal Co Co was 16 years ago. That was in a different era and the idea that these conditions can suddenly be imposed may be legal, but it this case the law is an ass.

Dr Turk Turkelton

https://extra.ie/2023/08/09/news/irish-news/daa-night-flights

Thankfully common sense has prevailed.

magicbastarder

not 'suddenly imposed' surely?

you can't build a massive extension on the side of your house by claiming 'arra sure the house itself got planning permission 16 years ago'.

if you want to do something which requires planning permission, and you have not received planning permission for it - you ask permission first.

DAngelo Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120957154#Comment_120957154

But there is absolutely no evidence that abiding by a no flights rule between 11 and 7 will cost 100s of jobs?

89897

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120958527#Comment_120958527

On on earth do you figure that restricting operating times and losing tens of thousands of customers daily wont result in job loses?? When the people arent there to be serviced theres no need for jobs to service them hense people lose jobs.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120958527#Comment_120958527

Just use a bit of logic. If Dublin-based aircraft have to be back on the ground at 11pm and can't leave before 7am, this resrticts aircraft utilisation. Ryenair almost certainly won't continue to base as many aircraft (40?) in Dublin, but will re-locate to bases whare they can be used more intensively. Overall a loss of maintenance-related jobs in Dublin, even before you start to figure the losses of cabin crew etc due to fewer flights.

Sunny Disposition

Absolutely disgraceful from the DAA. They knowingly breached the terms of planning and then complain that people would be inconvenienced, as if it wasn't their fault entirely.

There are serious questions to be asked of the DAA management again this year.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120961077#Comment_120961077

You would have to wonder about the people supporting them and wanting the planning system undermined/ignored. - I suspect that the DAA supporters simply want to have fewer delays in Dublin Airport and to fly out whenever they want. And fcuk due process and everyone else.

They might think differently if someone built a factory beside THEIR house and the factory was in flagrant breach of its planning in terms of noise and foul odours.

Sunny Disposition

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120961141#Comment_120961141

I can't believe even the DAA management think they've done the right thing. It's incredible.

There's a bit of a tradition in Ireland of due process sometimes falling by the wayside for the influential. Batshit though. They knew the restrictions.

Jinglejangle69

Thought we were in the midst of a climate emergency and we’re all gonna die if we don’t cut back in every sector???

Why is aviation allowed expand???

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120961206#Comment_120961206

1.30am this morning and you could still hear the planes and I live 25km from the airport. This was never an issue till the new runway opened up.

We all know the DAA stuck in the planning application with whatever would get it through with no intention of ever adhering to it and hoping by keeping the head down and not saying anything it would go away.

crusd

I thought the permission on the airport was just runway 2. Surely they can still use runway 1 for these flights? Just run at 50% capacity for the restricted hours ( which still was 20m passengers per year before 2 opened).

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120961513#Comment_120961513

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120963716#Comment_120963716

Floppybits: you heard planes at 25km from the airport? Whatever about a few people in places like St Margarets, this is a nonsense point. I live on the South side of Dublin, well within 25kms. I wonder why we are net kept awake at night.

Crusd: That's the point, what you call "runway2" is the only one in use at night, but that's not enough to satisfy FCC and theNIMBTS. Alos, Dubllin Airport has handled well over 20m passengers a year under virtual single runway operation.

And by the way having two runways in operation virtually eliminates lengthy holding patterns for aircraft waiting for landing clearance. When winds are Easterly, this will lead to more noise over land.