New TEN-T charging network rules

MJohnston

Not yet EU law but could be soon - this would be fairly interesting. More details:

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20230707IPR02419/meps-adopt-new-rules-for-more-charging-stations-and-greener-maritime-fuels

liamog

Main deployment targets for 2025 and 2030

The text of the regulation provides for specific deployment targets that will have to be met in 2025 or 2030, in particular:

• from 2025 onwards, fast recharging stations of at least 150kW for cars and vans need to be installed every 60 km along the EU’s main transport corridors, the so-called ‘trans-European transport (TEN-T) network’
• recharging stations for heavy-duty vehicles with a minimum output of 350kW need to be deployed every 60 km along the TEN-T core network, and every 100 km on the larger TEN-T comprehensive network from 2025 onwards, with complete network coverage by 2030
• hydrogen refuelling stations serving both cars and lorries must be deployed from 2030 onwards in all urban nodes and every 200 km along the TEN-T core network 
• maritime ports welcoming a minimum number of large passenger vessels, or container vessels, must provide shore-side electricity for such vessels by 2030
• airports must provide electricity to stationary aircraft at all gates by 2025, and at all remote stands by 2030
• users of electric or hydrogen-fuelled vehicles must be able to pay easily at recharging or refuelling points with payment cards or contactless devices and without a need for a subscription and in full price transparency
• operators of recharging or refuelling points must provide consumers full information through electronic means on the availability, waiting time or price at different stations

the_amazing_raisin

I didn't realise the requirements for aircraft and ships where in there, that's good to see and should at least mean ports and airports are equipped for electric travel

I think the requirements around payment are going to end up being too weak. There doesn't seem to be anything that says the charger itself has to take payment (or a terminal nearby)

You could have the likes of Ionity, who take card payment but only via the app, claiming they're compliant to the regulations

I get that card terminals are an extra expense, but compared to the other hardware I can't imagine they're that expensive and you can always have one terminal for multiple chargers like Maxol

It'll be interesting to see how the hydrogen network will fare. Maybe it'll take off for long distance trucking, but more manufacturers seem to be betting on batteries instead.

I wonder how many hydrogen stations will end up living off government subsidies because they don't have enough customers but they're required to remain open by law

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120894054#Comment_120894054

Seems pretty clear “must be able to pay easily at recharging or refuelling points with payment cards or contactless devices”

notice the word “at”

blackbox

I think the requirement for ships and aircraft is to stop them from having to run generators/APUs in port/ airport.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120894054#Comment_120894054

This is the problem with summaries, the regulation goes into detail about how ad-hoc payments must be made available to customers.

It mandates at least one payment point per recharging pool that accepts either payment cards or a contactless payment terminal that is required to accept payment cards.

For points under 50kW, you can alternatively have online based payments.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120894206#Comment_120894206

Excellent, glad to see that loophole wasn't left open. I guess it makes sense that the sub 50kW units don't need card terminals yet, although I think if public AC charging ever takes off then that will need to change

It's worth noting that the TEN-T network in Ireland if effectively only 3 routes (Dublin to Cork, Limerick and Belfast). So the current EU regulations will only apply to those roads unless the Irish government chooses to exceed the standards

Hopefully the charging providers will provide card terminals on all chargers at some point, it'll be hard to argue they can't if they have them on some roads and not others

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120894511#Comment_120894511

The regulation applies to the Ten-T Comprehensive network with varying requirements for the Ten-T Core (Dublin, Belfast, Cork, Limerick) and Comprehensive networks.

10-10-20

Corridor map if anybody's looking for the key to that first image above.

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/infrastructure/tentec/tentec-portal/site/maps_upload/SchematicA0_EUcorridor_map.pdf

liamog

The regulation for the comp network require 50% of the network to be covered by chargers every 60km by the end of 2027.

ELM327

Remove the hydrogen nonsense and it's pretty good otherwise.

It's a pity we don't use NACS over here as all cars could move to that and this would be pretty solved in central europe and uk anyway.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120894776#Comment_120894776

As much as I think NACS is the better option, I can guarantee it'll never be the standard here. CCS was developed by a European led consortium of automakers, they won't pick an American standard over it

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120894900#Comment_120894900

That and the lack of 3 phase , yes, it wont come to europe but I would wish it did!

D_D

I think we can just be grateful that we agreed to have the CCS standard on cars otherwise we would have been in the worse situation like the states where NACS, CCS and Chademo were all on the go... Us having all cars incl. Teslas on the CCS standard does simplify things somewhat

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120895074#Comment_120895074

Absolutely, a less ergonomic standard is still way better than no standard

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120894776#Comment_120894776

The hydrogen targets are notably much weaker, target date is 2030 with infra every 200km. The regulation has a mandatory review by 31st December 2026

I expect the regulation is in place to ensure there is a regulation and shut up some lobbyists.

the_amazing_raisin

Yeah looking at the hydrogen specifics, the requirement is for 1 dispenser that can server up to 1 tonne of hydrogen per day

Pretty far from the requirements for multiple chargers on the EV side of things

They make several mentions in the document that hydrogen is considered to be early stage of deployment and so far only long distance trucking has been identified as the potential primary user

10-10-20

I have a feeling that H2 will start to replace diesel on large commercial vehicles over the next 10 years. Engine development is nearly complete by JCB and the likes and it's not far off being a direct replacement in terms of fit and function over a diesel engine. The added bonus is the lack of excessive battery weight and the refueling speeds which hinder EV. Having the refueling resource already on the motorway will suit intercity bus and truck services where having an EV powered vehicle would necessitate a higher axle count to spread the load, especially if that kerb weight is going to be a road-tax multiplier in future years.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120895268#Comment_120895268

I think the EU have already said they'll increase the weight limit for battery powered trucks

I'd say it's still up in the air for hydrogen versus battery trucks. There's specific requirements for truck charging as well which look to be much better than the single hydrogen dispenser every 200km that's mentioned

With logistics, predictability is usually a higher priority than speed, so if you knew there was one hydrogen station or 5 megawatt charging stations along a route then it's easy to argue electric is the way to go

If you look at the manufacturers, there's definitely a split between the ones who have their feet on both sides of the fence (Volvo being one example) and one that have gone full EV (Man) and the few full hydrogen ones out there (Hyzon)

gaming_needs90

Where is the connection to the west/north-west!? First i've heard of this TEN T initiative.

MJohnston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120896658#Comment_120896658

TEN-T has been a thing for a while:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-European_Transport_Network

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120896658#Comment_120896658

They aren't a specific type of road, they're more like a set of routes which were determined to be important for travel across the EU

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120895346#Comment_120895346

Even with high powered chargers it'll still take a long time to charge a HGV so it would need to be done when the drivers are on rest breaks. There's not enough places for drivers to have rest breaks, and finding somewhere to sleep is a nightmare on busy routes, so where will they get the space for all these chargers when they don't have enough spaces for legally required driver breaks?

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897302#Comment_120897302

The current CCS chargers will max out around 500kW, but the next generation of MCS chargers will be able to support up to 3.75MW of charging

That's enough to top up a 500kWh truck battery in under 15 mins, probably faster than the time to fill a diesel truck

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megawatt_Charging_System

Deployment is going to be key, which is why regulations like what the EU is putting in place are critical

It's also worth keeping in mind that there's very strict limits to when drivers need to take breaks. Realistically drivers can't cover more than 500km without a rest stop (even that is pushing it) so you just need to have slightly more range than that. The rest period needs to be 45 mins total, but can be split into a 15 and 30 mins rest

Taking the 30 mins break as a potential charging stop, you'd need a 1MW charger to charge 500kWh which seems to be enough for around 500km

So this is why having reliable charging hubs along major routes is so important. Drivers need to be confident that not only to the chargers exist, but that they'll work and there won't be a massive queue.

I could see a Kempower type of system where there available power is pooled among a large number of chargers being successful here

I agree truck stops are badly under provisioned, it seems to be particularly problematic in the UK and Ireland, I'm guessing that's because overnight stopovers aren't as common here

Hopefully as they roll out truck charging it also includes some updates to the rest stops. It'd be great to see some break rooms, gyms and sleeping areas in those rest stops. Mostly they seem to either just be a big truck park or maybe have a couple of awful bathrooms and a takeaway nearby

10-10-20

Thanks for the info @the_amazing_raisin, interesting stuff.

I'm just considering practicalities of electric trucks though, one of those would be breakdown assistance for situations where they run out of fuel. I can foresee some ability to perform a H2 recharge in a hard-shoulder, I'd suspect that it would need a team of two vehicles to create a safe-zone for the operation to complete and the whole operation could be over within 15 mins, but the same doesn't apply to an electric truck as the generator would have to be pretty large with a large DC inverter attached. Maybe it's easier than I think.

Anyway, back to TEN-T. Given that Galway and the North West isn't specifically drawn onto that map, does that give the relevant government department the carte-blanche to just ignore these routes, I wonder?

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897969#Comment_120897969

They won't be able to ignore it as the regulation applies to the TEN-T comprehensive network as mapped in my post https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120894612/#Comment_120894612

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898034#Comment_120898034

Ah, comprehensive including the lighter routes, got you now. Thanks.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897870#Comment_120897870

Agree with all points regarding truck driver break infrastructure.

Just on the CCS standard, CCS1 was limited to 125a then 200a, then the extension to 500a was made possible with CCS 2 (note, different to CCS type2, I'm talking about standard protocols here andnot the plug AC type). The current 500a limit is only a paper limit, similar to 125a. It can be extended without issue. Indeed, Tesla already charges at 700a on existing CCS2 plugs and cables. It's not going to be a big jump to 3MW, likely CCS will increase in the interim too.

Of course, you can charge trucks and buses on existing CCS plugs. Often these trucks don't even have an AC onboard charger, so DC via CCS is the only way to charge. Even if you have a 500kWh battery in a truck, if you charge it at 500A and 800v (limited to approx 300-350kW by the existing infrastructure, could be 400kW otherwise) it would only take an hour to get to 80%. And that's using the existing infrastructure - Ionity. We're actually not far away from a point where it is viable to do .

And for those thinking Ionity would be expensive for a truck, truck driving is expensive, and 5-6mpg wouldnt be unheard of depending on load. 5 miles per gallon is just under a liter per mile!

MJohnston

As an aside, we really fucked it with charge point terminology. We're already at "ultra-fast" at 150kW. Hopefully more people just become aware of the different kW level implications and then we can get aware from opaque terminology.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120897969#Comment_120897969

Well the great thing about running out of fuel or charge is that it's rare and people tend not to do it more than once

I'd be tempted to argue it's more economical that truck drivers who run out of fuel more than twice should probably have their license suspended rather than pay for the infrastructure to rescue them 😂

Anyway, it will happen at some point, so there needs to be a solution

Presumably the majority of truck breakdowns are fixed on the side of the road, so the same will need to be possible for electric or hydrogen trucks

There's AA vans with generators onboard for EV breakdowns, but 7kW isn't really going to cut it. You'll probably need some sort of power cart with more like 50kW DC output. The deal is generally the breakdown service gives you enough juice to get to a nearby charger, so based on a truck being at most 50km away from a charging hub you're looking at a 1 hour charging time

It's a bit crap I'll admit, particularly when you count the wait time for the van, but it's probably good enough for the handful of times it'll happen

I'd actually be very interested to find out exactly what type of roadside repairs can be done to either vehicle types. The few times that electric drivetrains breakdown it tends to be something fairly catastrophic, so you wonder how easy it is to swap out components on the roadside

I'd also how much work can safely be done on a fueled hydrogen truck. Will they have to release all of the hydrogen, which is presumably a bit of more complex than knocking the cap off the tanks? If that's the case then you're guaranteed a roadside refuel will be needed

Refueling a hydrogen truck from another vehicle should be possible but I can't imagine the equipment will come cheap. You'd probably be looking at 1-2 refueling trucks for the whole country. For that price you could probably get 5-6 generator vehicles

Doesn't even need to be a generator, could use a scaled down version of this to avoid any nasty exhaust emissions

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2020/company/porsche-high-power-charging-trucks-mobile-power-sources-22285.html

That trailer has 2MWh onboard, probably enough for 2,000km of truck driving. Scale it down to 1/10th the size and it should fit into a light truck or van and still be able to provide enough enough range and power for any vehicle breakdown

Overall, the situation seems simpler for a BEV than hydrogen

One thing I'm sure of is that the manufacturers will have to come up with something. From what I've seen they seem to have dedicated callout mechanics for trucks, they don't seem to mess around with commercial customers

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120898215#Comment_120898215

I'm guessing the MCS chargers will be called Megawatt chargers or something similar

But I'm sure we'll have a fair share of Hyper chargers, Ultra Megawatt chargers etc.

We'd enough trouble when drivers had to choose between leaded, unleaded or diesel, it's going to be some amount of fun in a few years 🤦‍♂️

I believe part of the regulations was that the available power and type of plug has to be clearly stated, so at least there's something to avoid the confusion

MJohnston

Ultra-hyper-megazord I mean charger

the_amazing_raisin

I found this article which looks pretty interesting considering there was discussion earlier on what happens if an electric or hydrogen truck breaks down or runs out of charge

https://www.electrive.com/2023/07/25/e-gap-orders-60-fiat-vans-for-mobile-charging-stations/

The service is basically an electric van with a 130kWh battery and 80kW DC charger in the back

It's currently meant for renting out for sites that don't have power available, but it could easily be used for a roadside assistance service

zg3409

I suspect the options on break down would be to separate cab from trailer, tow cab to next charging point.

They already tow artic cabs and trailers, in the past they towed bendy busses in Dublin and Double deckers.

It's unlikely they will stop on the motorway due to lack of power. Far more likely they will be at a broken charger or miscalculated and have time to pull in safely and call for assistance before they are stopped dead. Even HQ could monitor location and battery % and automatically call the driver if they looked to have forgotten to charge or were broken down. Already modern cars will report fault codes directly to the manufacturer and the SOS button provides help with position automatically reported.

The AA tend to tow EVs to nearest charging station as it's quicker for all than sitting on the side of the road trickle charging.