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Children's Hospital Debacle - What Next

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  • 19-07-2023 4:58pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 7,989 ✭✭✭


    I guess there is little point in going back over the past decisions about this. The wrong contract on the wrong site in the wrong place etc. In spite of many warnings about the decision.

    However it seems that the Government is over a barrel with the contractor now on the costs which are still mounting with no end in sight and way behind schedule. Is it time to call their bluff just pull the plug even now and repurpose/sell it and do it right elsewhere. Outside Dublin (at least outside the M50) on a greenfield site.



Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    In too deep



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,075 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Contracts going forward should fall to facilitate the state not the builders, developers and so on…We should be calling the shots.

    why in this country does everyone from governments, regulatory bodies, citizens themselves, end up bending to the wants, whims and wellbeing of businesses and business people…. It’s a culture now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,989 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    It seems that's what they are counting on. Holding us to ransom. Could it be sold as is for apartments etc. could another site be developed for the 1.5 billions minimum estimated that it will cost to finish.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'll put it to you this way, if you were employing someone building a house for you and you turfed the builder out (for whatever reason) you'd be waiting a long time for another builder to take over a half completed project and you'd pay through the nose for the privilege.

    Suffice to say, its the wrong building, in the wrong location, badly planned, poorly managed and will cost multiples of the original price by the time its done

    It will still be built though



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,989 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    You would indeed but it might still be easier to start somewhere else. If the Government give in they may set a precedent on further cases where a Contractor doesn't comply.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Honestly that sounds like a bit of "cut off your nose to spite your face" logic. I 100% get your reasoning behind that approach, I just dont think it would get the result you think it would



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,616 ✭✭✭Allinall


    How do all the posters on boards know that it’s the wrong site, when they weren’t involved in the site selection process, and haven’t a clue what’s involved in that process?



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,989 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Maybe not but according to the various websites such a hospital should cost 1B dollars. Take away whatever you could sell the present one for and it might be just the same cost?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,267 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    The medical consultants did not want a site at or outside the M50.

    They are a key stakeholder with power.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Tow


    Plenty of better sites within the M50.

    It appears even rebuilding in Crumlin would have been better.

    When is the money (including lost growth) Michael Noonan took in the Pension Levy going to be paid back?



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,989 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    It's not outer mongolia? You are probably right though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 455 ✭✭onedmc


    I'm guessing 5 to 6 billon by the end of this. When we count in all the costs on not just the building but include the medical, IT and accommodation equipment.

    Not just an Irish thing its happened elsewhere.

    https://www.thelocal.se/20180207/finance-minister-calls-for-new-karolinska-hospital-inquiry



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,887 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    They spent millions on reports and experts telling us why the Mater was the right location. Then did the same with the current location. Some of us have followed the saga from the start, and read much of it.

    That they had to try so desperately hard to persuade people should be warning enough.

    I suspect if it ever opens that's when the problems will really start. But at this point they are far along that have no choice but to make it work. No matter how bad it is.

    That they are unable to reign in the runaway train costs is pretty damming this late in the project.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,059 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    They spent millions on reports and experts telling us why the Mater was the right location. Then did the same with the current location. Some of us have followed the saga from the start, and read much of it.

    That they had to try so desperately hard to persuade people should be warning enough.

    Would it be better if they just went by feels?

    Planning and expert reports are, in fact, a good thing with such a large decision.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,532 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    It is not the first such debacle. Irish Water is another one where everything that could be done wrong was done wrong. Every house in Ireland was to get a water meter - why? The legal cost of setting up IW was massive. Why could they not do a copy of the legal setup of Bord Gais? Why did they not have IW as an oversight and planning body directing the actions of the existing local authority works?

    Lots of questions and always the wrong solution chosen.

    Anyone who has been involved in a huge project like the CH knows that the plan is finalised and signed off before a piece of kit goes on site. Any changes are cheaper to effect after handover.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,887 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    The point being that's how people know about the saga. They read the reports.

    You can distort a report just like you can everything. One way is to artificially limit its scope. Then people assume the report took everything into account, when it didn't.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,989 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Final completion date is uncertain! Understatement.




  • Registered Users Posts: 18,518 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    It's was a national scandal 10 years ago, never mind now with cost "overruns" lack of transparancy and seemingly no end date.

    We've had about 30 politicians, the staff of the Oireachtas and various supporting staff of committies and PAC, as well as the glare of many media organsations and the public tied up with a 345K overpayment to ryan tubridy over the course of the past 6 years - resulting in at least 3 external reviews (possibly more), god knows how much more spending in order to get to the bottom of it and reviews here there and everywhere.

    Yet here we see the absolute scandalous "waste" of taxpayers money with literally NO END in sight. I have no doubt that the contractor has gotten many state contracts in the intervening time as there really aren't that many big players.

    I appreciate we need a childrens hospital (and I would argue a few more general purpose hospitals as well) but Christ it's a shambles.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,978 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Yes, the contractor has gotten other state contracts and completed them on time and within budget. BAM is getting an absolute battering over the NCH, but from day one it was known that the government agreed to what was a flawed open ended contract and that the board have changed specs multiple times mid build enormously adding to the costs. As well as huge construction inflation over the last 3 years.

    If the government hadn't gone with such a flawed contract and the development board didn't keep changing things, then the costs wouldn't have ballooned so much. Remember that BAM offered to walk away from the project in 2019.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,059 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    How did they artificially limit the scope of the reports?



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