Electrical work (lights and sockets) outside (garden) 2nd hand house. No certificate of safety req

sirmixalot

I recently had a survey done on a 2006 property, buying it 2nd hand. Noticed plugs and lights that go in from exterior wall to interior house.

I wondered if such work needed to be certified so it's safe really. My solicitor said the following.

Unfortunately with a second hand house the doctrine of Caveat Emptor applies, Buyer Beware. With a second hand house the Vendors are not obliged to furnish certificates in respect of electrical work etc.

Is the above correct? Just leads me to believe that any cowboy could do work on a house then and sell it right?

sirmixalot

pic if it helps

2011

The method of wiring that you describe although it is not a nice solution is permitted by the rules.

sirmixalot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120850620#Comment_120850620

Good to know, so essentially I could rip it out and do it nicely and no comeback on me in years to come if I were to sell

Thanks

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120850663#Comment_120850663

That’s not what I said.

Yes you could get this work redone to a higher standard. But from a legal perspective this work should be carried out by a Registered Electrical Contractor. A certificate would be issued in this case.

Or you may decide to illegally do this work yourself and most likely you would “get away with it”. Although theoretically speaking you could face a criminal prosecution for this.

embracingLife

It's in the Sales Pack that your solicitor uses when doing conveyancing on the purchase of property in Ireland that the vendor (seller) must provide an up to date -issued by a registered electrician within the past twelve months - electrical certificate for the electrics in the house you are buying that all the electrics in the house are compliant with the electrical regulations.

Contact your solicitor and make sure they get the vendor's solicitor to provide this electrical certificate from the house owner which would include whether these outside cables are compliant etc.

This electrical certificate in house sales is usually looked for by buyers solicitors for new houses but for several years now it's been listed as compulsory for 2nd hand house sales. It's very slack that your solicitor doesn't know this/can't be bothered to find this out from the vendor's solicitor. It's in the check list of items to do during the sale process/exchange of contracts etc process.

The quote that your solicitor sent you is a joke! I can't believe they wrote that to you!

meercat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120858374#Comment_120858374

,never heard of this. Can you provide a link that confirms this somewhere

L1011

It isn't compulsory, and the majority of houses would not be able to get such a certificate.

This lists what is in a sellers legal pack - there is no mention of electrical certificates:

https://www.ipav.ie/sites/default/files/ipav_sellers_legal_pack_brief_2023_aug.pdf

I have a newly wired house, and once my (early 2023) issued cert goes over 12 months old, it would fail this hypothetical requirement as no electrician is going to certify the stuff I've done myself like wire in the oven and the under-cabinet lighting in the kitchen; at least not without taking it all back out and doing it again. But as the requirement doesn't exist, that isn't an issue.

(also - the Sellers Legal Pack is a voluntary thing, not law anyway)

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120850897#Comment_120850897

Why would a REC be required to do this?

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120858374#Comment_120858374

This is completely incorrect.

blackbox

It's completely unrealistic to expect an old house to meet current wiring standards.

It doesn't automatically mean its dangerous.

embracingLife

Ruffled a few feathers today queen's?

Ever heard of a Periodic Inspection Report which lists the condition of the electrics? Suppose you're going to argue now what type of properties these are applicable to.

The op can get their solicitor to tell the vendor to get this as they can use the result or if they refuse to get one the op is in a good position to haggle with the vendor over the price of rectifying the issue with the crappy outside wiring.

The buyers solicitor is a gobsh1te for not doing their job properly on their clients behalf. You all obviously don't have much experience in buying and selling properties to think the op has no come back in this issue. The ball is firmly on the op's side to get the vendor to sort this.

embracingLife

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120860124#Comment_120860124

Ask your solicitor

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120860891#Comment_120860891

What has to be sorted exactly?

OP - did your surveyor bring this up as an issue or was it just an observation?

If not, then the only time this might be an issue/additional cost is IF the house has been disconnected from the ESB supply for more than six months and you require reconnection.

https://www.esbnetworks.ie/new-connections/reconnecting-supply

Even at that I don't believe it is up to the vendor to provide certification in normal circumstances.

If you deem the work unsatisfactory then you need to ask yourself is it a deal breaker (re the purchase of the house) OR is it something you can accept and pending a whole host of other things "fix" it to your own standards down the line.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120860891#Comment_120860891

Going to admit that you completely made up your original post?

An inspection report is not a certificate, it is not part of the sellers pack and the sellers pack isn't compulsory - so not one bit of what you said was true

hesker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120860891#Comment_120860891

You’re living in dreamland.

In today’s market where supply is so short the ball is firmly in the vendor’s court.

All any vendor has to say is the property is being sold “as is”. All necessary surveys should be conducted by the potential buyer and the remediation cost factored in to any bids.

That will bring a quick end to any haggling.

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120860180#Comment_120860180

Anything other than minor works are classified as ‘restricted works’ in a domestic premises and should only be completed by a registered electrical contractor.

Would rewiring / prettying up what is shown in the photo be considered minor works (which would not necessarily require an REC? - quite possibly. It is not strictly defined.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120864869#Comment_120864869

Yep, simple replacement of socket and wiring is minor works.

Poster saying the OP could face prison for swapping a few components must be having a laugh.

sirmixalot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120860928#Comment_120860928

Nope, it was not noticed by Surveyor, I just thought it maybe worth mentioning it after. He didn't really seem to be pushed on investigating it further, sent on a pic of it to him and nothing from him. I thought then I'd ask my solicitor and they gave the response you saw up the thread.

All good though, I may cover it with cladding or something, was just curious if this type of work needs certification or not, anyway will get it checked my a sparks just to make sure.

sirmixalot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120864880#Comment_120864880

Yeah, must admit I thought that was a bit harsh too :) Nearly thinking about getting a TV Licence now :)

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120864880#Comment_120864880

Where is it stated that someone could face prison?

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120860891#Comment_120860891

Rest assured there are no "ruffled feathers" from your inaccurate posts.

The first problem with your post is that there is no reason to conclude that what is shown in the photo provided wouldn't pass a periodic inspection. Although the wiring shown is unsightly there is no evidence of a breach of the national wiring rules. Perhaps you can explain what regulations you think have been broken?

The second problem with this post is that it is currently a seller's market so pointing out that you do not approve of compliant wiring is unlikely to help the OP "haggle with the vendor".

Finally it is not the job of the buyer's solicitor to assess the standard of the electrical installation. Solicitors tend to focus on the legal aspects, they would only get involved in commenting on electrical work if directed by a suitably qualified person which does not appear to be the case.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120904978#Comment_120904978

You said criminal prosecution for illegal electrical works, which carried a fine of up to 15k euro and 3 years in prison .

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120906490#Comment_120906490

Incorrect. You have misrepresented what I stated to suit your argument.

Here is a direct quote of what I said in post #5 above:

"Or you may decide to illegally do this work yourself and most likely you would “get away with it”. Although theoretically speaking you could face a criminal prosecution for this."

No mention of prison or €15k fine in my post, instead I imply no consequences are most likely.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120907122#Comment_120907122

What, theoretically, could be the consequences of the theoretical criminal prosecution, based on the legislation of the theoretical offense?

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120907141#Comment_120907141

You provided an answer to this in post #23, are you correct?

My point is that there is little or no risk of consequences. Do you agree or not?

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120907158#Comment_120907158

Yes I am, and to insinuate that a criminal prosecution "hypothetically speaking" could be taken against the OP is still ridiculous.

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120907168#Comment_120907168

.....except that an unregistered electrician has been jailed:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20381726.html

I stated in post #5 that a criminal prosecution is possible, this is a fact as can be seen on the link below. The reality is that some people have been proceuted for this see link:

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/crackdown-cowboy-electricians-launched-after-13731393

I also stated in the same post that I believed that this was unlikely, this is still my position. You misrepresent my position in post #18 as "Poster saying the OP could face prison for swapping a few components must be having a laugh."

https://safeelectric.ie/contractors/support/prosecution-consequences/

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120907222#Comment_120907222

The OP is not an unregistered electrician, and this example doesn't fall under the restricted works category as it's an existing installation and not near the distribution board.

We're going round in circles at this stage, and you're looking for some "get out" by misrepresenting the OP.

It doesn't matter that you said it was "unlikely". It's ridiculous you brought it up in the first place.

2011

@Padre_Pio

The OP is not an unregistered electrician, and this example doesn't fall under the restricted works category as it's an existing installation and not near the distribution board.

If the OP did this work they would be regarded just the same as an unregistered electrician.

Whether something is restricted works or not has nothing to do with the age of the installation, whether it is existing or new, it also has nothing to do with the distance from the distribution board. You are very misinformed if you think this is the case. If I'm incorrect on this you should have no issue providing links to disprove (as I did above).

We're going round in circles at this stage, and you're looking for some "get out" by misrepresenting the OP.

I stand by my point, I have provided links showing what the law is and that people have been criminally prosecuted for ignoring this law. I also maintain my position that this is unlikely.

It doesn't matter that you said it was "unlikely". It's ridiculous you brought it up in the first place.

Except that I brought it up in response to OP's post #4 in which it stated "....so essentially I could rip it out and do it nicely and no comeback on me in years to come......"

Padre_Pio

https://safeelectric.ie/help-advice/controlled-restricted-electrical-works/

As set out in Statutory Instruments, S.I. No. 264 of 2013, Restricted Electrical Works are:

the installation, commissioning, inspection and testing of a new Electrical Installation which is fixed, fastened or mounted or otherwise secured so that its position does not change and requires connection or re-connection to the distribution network or the transmission network, as the case may be;

(Note this only applies to NEW installations)

the modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board including customer tails on either side of the Main Protective Device or of an Electrical Installation in any of the special locations listed in Part 7 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations, as the case may be;

(Nope)

the installation or replacement of one or more circuits in an Electrical Installation, including the installation of one or more additional protective devices for such circuits on a Distribution Board; or

(Not replacing a circuit)

the inspection, testing or certification of, or reporting on, existing Electrical Installations covered by Chapter 62 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations;

(Nope)

in a Domestic Property.

Minor Electrical Works

The CER when defining Controlled Electrical Work recognised that a certain amount of

Do-It-Yourself (or “DIY”) electrical installation work is a feature of electrical installations

in domestic premises in this country and generally involves “like for like” replacements of (LIKE FOR LIKE)

switches, sockets, lighting fittings and/or additions to an existing circuit. This work must

also be in compliance with the National Wiring Rules. However, Minor Electrical Works

are currently outside the scope of Controlled Electrical Works and also, under the

definition, outside the scope of Restricted Electrical Works.

The CER is of the view, having given consideration to the responses received to its

consultation on this issue, that Minor Electrical Works do not impose a significant safety

risk on the consumer, and therefore has decided they will be exempt from the scope of

Controlled and Restricted Electrical Works. Additionally, restricting Minor Electrical

Works would achieve very limited public safety benefits, whilst imposing a

disproportionate cost on customer

2011

See point 3 above, in this case at least one circuit would have to be replaced, therefore Restricted Works.

Let's take this in the context of what the OP said. In the OP's post he states that he "could rip it out and do it nicely and no comeback on me in years to come if I were to sell". If this isn't replacing a circuit, what is?

See post 4.

sirmixalot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120907800#Comment_120907800

I was just saying i could do it nicer, it'd be there before me so essentially I'm tidying it up really (what was meant by "ripping out") Anyway it's grand, I'll sort it out when i get time and it'll not be noticed, well, it'll be better than what it is.

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120909728#Comment_120909728

I'm sure you could do it far better, it wouldn't be difficult.

It really doesn't bother me whether you do it yourself or get a Registered Electrical Contractor to do it, I have no skin in the game. As already stated I would not think it likely that you will face any consequences once the work is done properly.