Tune up races during marathon training block

Laineyfrecks

All 3 of my marathon blocks so far have included tune up races, usually a 10m & half marathon. I'm undecided this year if I want to race again during the block as I have raced a fair bit this year. My question is what do people prefer to do? What benefits do you feel you get? If you haven't raced have you regretted it afterwards?

Hopefully some answers here will help me decide!

marathon2022

I'm the opposite, no tune up races during the last three blocks and as Im trying P&D for the first time there will be three late on on the training.

Not doing any didn't affect my marathons one bit, I knew were I was and what I was capable of.

Sandwell

I'm a big fan of doing tune up races but it's probably because I'm someone who really enjoys racing and finds it hard to stay away for 18 weeks. I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to this one.

djemba djemba

Yes would always do two tune up races. Last one no closer than 6 weeks to race day.

I am not sure I would make it through a block without a race to break up the training.

Lazare

I'm not going to race any tune ups this year.

Following Hanson for Amsterdam.

Before I began the plan I considered Tullamore half, thinking I would use it as a target guide.

Now though I don't see the point, and think it would be counterproductive.

Hanson's Thursday MP sessions will tell me my target, they're partly designed to do so.

In order to get that info from a half I would need to mini taper, and recover. The week Tullamore falls would have me missing 3x important sessions, possibly four.

Tune ups do have merit for sure, I just don't feel the need this year, and that's purely down to following Hanson I think.

Laineyfrecks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120784075#Comment_120784075

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120784358#Comment_120784358

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120784606#Comment_120784606

Cheers for the replies. So if you race are you racing aiming for a PB or at least going full tilt or doing them as some kind of training/MP run? If you race them do you taper & then what about the recovery afterwards? Do you feel the benefits it gives you mentally outweighs any down time in the plan?

djemba djemba

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120784638#Comment_120784638

A race is a race in my opinion. Any marathon paced miles etc i would do as part of a long run.

I would taper in from Tuesdays reduced session beforehand and easy out until Wednesday afterwards. If the race is on a Sunday.

As for downtime in the plan I don't think I miss out on too much. My race on the Sunday just replaces the session on the following Tuesday.

Sandwell

If I race I race flat out. I'd be hoping for a PB but not necessarily expecting one due to lack of freshness.

I don't taper in terms of mileage but will always drop the session before the race and usually the one after, depending on the intensity etc. so I'm relying on the race to provide enough stimulus to make up for maybe two missed sessions. I believe that it does.

Just to give an example, I'm following Hanson at the moment and last week I ran the Clonee 10k. That fell on a Thursday where I would have otherwise been doing 6 miles at marathon pace so it fitted quite well. But it meant that I skipped the Tuesday interval session beforehand (replaced with 1 hr easy). The next session according to the plan was on Sunday, 12 steady, so I did that but at a slightly slower steady pace than usual. This week I'm fully back on plan with no issues.

Murph_D

I wouldn't worry about a race impacting on sessions before and after - the race itself has a large training effect, and you can't beat the specificity of racing. As long as you're not doing too much of it I think it's fine - especially early in your running 'career' when the experience is really beneficial. Maybe not as necessary when you have plenty of that experience.

Definitely never regretted doing any race - I race a lot - but never regretted not doing them either, sometimes you need to prioritise the non-race activities!

marathon2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120784638#Comment_120784638

Assuming everything goes smoothly and according to plan, the intention is to give my utmost effort in the tune up races. The rationale behind this approach can be found in the P&D book(the plan I'm following this time), which discusses several advantages associated with tune-up races.

Firstly, these races offer an opportunity to practice your pre-race routine, which encompasses aspects such as diet and warm-up. By participating in these events, you can fine-tune your preparations and ensure that you are well-prepared for the main race.

Secondly, tune-up races serve as a means to assess your fitness level. They provide valuable feedback on your current physical condition, allowing you to gauge your progress and make any necessary adjustments to your training regimen.

Lastly, these races play a crucial role in managing nerves. By exposing yourself to race-like conditions, you can acclimate to the pressures and anxieties that often accompany competitive events. This experience helps you develop strategies to cope with nerves, enabling you to perform at your best when it matters most.

Various methods exist for conducting these tune-up races, with distances ranging from 15 to 25 kilometers. The approach typically involves a mini taper and a few days of recovery to strike the right balance. Races may also be shorter but more intense compared to your regular training sessions. It is essential to evaluate the results based on your overall strategy, level of fatigue, and the effectiveness of your tapering process.

This is all new to me so I will let you know how I feel end of August/September when the plan hits tune up time.

Laineyfrecks

Thanks so much for all the replies, some really interesting points, food for thought😊

Anbocmorrua

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120785662#Comment_120785662

Agree with maratho2022. Also, marathon training blocks can get a bit relentless. Having a race or two to look forward to breaks things up and makes the journey more fun.

Trampas

Always like a half marathon around the 5-6 weeks out on a similar style profile to what you’ll be doing in full. Gives you a good idea where you stand. No point in doing a flat half if you’re doing a dragging for rolley full as you might think your full time is faster than it is. I’d even do the half not flat out as not like you’ll be tapering before or resting after it. Think of the big picture.

Murph_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120785662#Comment_120785662

Where can I find a 15k or 25k tune-up race? 🤔

skyblue46

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120795432#Comment_120795432

Ask ChatGpt 🙈

Murph_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120796597#Comment_120796597

Now now. 😱

marathon2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120795432#Comment_120795432

The P&D book doesn't say. You really should read it, maybe your training P&D would have gone better

marathon2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120796597#Comment_120796597

The future is here

Murph_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120798070#Comment_120798070

Ouch!

Well I have definitely read the P&D book (I have 2nd ed) - that's one of the reasons I thought the summary of its 'tune-up races' was a bit off. For instance, the (AI-generated?) comment only mentions 15-25k tune-ups (race distances that do exist in the USA), while P&D in the book also talk about different categories (5k, 8-12k, and 30k+). Discusses all these categories in terms of their marathon specificity, taper requirements, recovery needs, and so on.

I certainly did plenty of tune-up racing as part of my own P&D schedules, and while I didn't hit targets, the approach still helped me to a decent enough marathon PB (Dublin 2016). So I wouldn't call it a complete failure!

adrian522

In the copy of the book I have the plans have tune up races of 8k-15K with no real taper and a long run the next day so they are not really designed for chasing PB's in the build up to the marathon and there is no race prescribed for 10 Miles or longer so you wouldn't really be racing a half marathon if following this plan.

Murph_D

True but they do talk briefly about shorter and longer tune-ups and their effect on the wider plan.

coogy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800735#Comment_120800735

I followed the P&L half marathon plan earlier in the year and I used the prescribed 'tune up' races (both 10k distance) as time trials )of sorts) with mixed results, mainly due to fitness levels not being quite what I thought they were. Also, I ran both of them solo so not ideal.

I'm following P&D for the marathon this year and I've already decided that aside from a 5 miler in September, I won't be racing during the training block and will more than likely run the tune up races in the plan as tempo runs.

adrian522

I think the point of these races is to have you do your long run the next day on very tired legs. For that reason I don't think it really matters if you do a solo TT or an organised race but either way you are probably best going all out than doing a tempo run.

marathon2022

I think I will give it my all in at least one tune-up race.

In the past four years, I haven't had many opportunities to truly engage in competitive 5k, 10k or HM distance racing. I remember one 5k, two 10k s and just one half marathon(the newbridge half debacle). My race paces have been determined primarily through time trials. Therefore, I would like to establish a solid performance in a half marathon, aiming for a time of in and around 1.30. Achieving this goal would likely boost my confidence and prepare me to tackle the Amsterdam marathon with a target time of 3.05 to 3.10.

However, I have some reservations due to an injury I sustained last year during the Fingal 10k, where I strained my hamstring. The injury still feels weakened, which makes me apprehensive about pushing myself to the limit in any upcoming race prior to the Marathon. The weakness was present in both DCM and Boston this year so I know I can push endurance, but can I do intensity without injury. You guys know the feeling I'm sure.

Duanington

I'm a fan of tune up races, so long as expectations for those races are somewhat limited - I know there are several approaches that would guide people to stay away from tune up races and each to their own, I think it really comes down to a) the plan you're following and b) your own mindset and which approach you're taking to the marathon.

The reality is, if training is going well, you're staying consistent and getting good sleep\hydration\nutrition, you're going to be in good shape.

However, with marathon training, you're also going to be carrying significant fatigue (not news to anyone here, I know), so when it comes to racing, the results can be hit and miss. I've personally had great races in the lead up to a marathon and I've had stinkers too....I've also had meh races which didn't feel great at the time but when I looked back after the block, they were really good indicators and broke up the training nicely.

For me, I enjoy racing and its why I train, marathon training blocks tend to be long and while the physical benefits of racing during a block can of course be questioned, the mental impact can be hugely beneficial - the pre-race tension, the post race high, the social aspect, the small battles during the race, all of those small things that can become bigger and bigger in our minds when left for too long, I find normalising them and putting myself under pressure on a regular basis works well.

Having said all of that, some people relish the focus of marathon training, the structure and the clear goal at the end, races are seen as a distraction and nothing more!

I tend to think we miss out on too much by staying away from racing for 12\16 weeks at a time, why else are we training ?

Laineyfrecks

Cheers for all the replies, some interesting discussions. I have booked the Tullamore half marathon for the 26th of August which is just about at half way of my plan so it will be a nice distraction to break the block up!

scotindublin

Tullamore is a great race, a good few rolling hills over the first half then a nice few miles as you head back towards the finish. Most of it is out of country roads which I always like (must be the country boy in me). Its also a great set up for a race with the facilities they have there. A little disappointed that it doesn't fit into the schedule this year.

Laineyfrecks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120811682#Comment_120811682

Cheers C, looking forward to it now that I have it booked, yeah it's a shame it doesn't fit into your schedule, hopefully you get something that does😊

Sandwell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120811682#Comment_120811682

You're doing Berlin, aren't you? I'm just interested why Tullamore doesn't fit in you schedule. Too close to the race? I ask because I'm half thinking of doing it myself but I'm a little concerned that it might be too close at four weeks out. I found it a great prep for Amsterdam last year but that's obviously a few weeks after Berlin.

rizzee

I've only recently got back in the swing of things, doing Amsterdam and have signed up to Kilcock 10M (20th August) then 3 weeks later Ratoath Half and 5 weeks later will be the full. Nice to break it all up and have mini goals.

scotindublin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120813499#Comment_120813499

I just feel that 4 weeks out is too close with Berlin in mind, if I was to do Tullamore I would want to race it even in the mara block. Same as yourself I thought it worked out perfectly last year for Chicago as it was 6 weeks out.

Hope the prep is going well for the marathon.

Sandwell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120816387#Comment_120816387

Yeah, you're probably right. No point in risking it. I might look at doing the Frank Duffy or the Kilcock 10 mile instead.

Training is going well, thanks. I'm a third of the way through Hanson and it's been fairly smooth sailing so far. Hope all's going well with your build up.

scotindublin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120816966#Comment_120816966

I was thinking of doing Kilcock aswell, if I do I will race it, have some unfinished business over 10 miles, going to hold off until committing until I get the next couple of weeks of training out the way.

Great to hear your plan is going smoothly so far, I had a couple of really easy weeks in June but ramping it up now, will sneak over the 60 mile mark this week and the plan will top out around 70 mpw/ not putting myself under the same pressure as Chicago last year for race day and will just take what comes my way.

C

Sandwell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120821150#Comment_120821150

Yeah, the more I think of it Kilcock seems the best option for me. Five weeks out so a week of recovery and then two more big training weeks before the taper.

We're obviously in a very similar place with the training. I've had a couple of 60 mile weeks, a step back last week, and should hit 65 for this week tomorrow. Not planning on going much higher than 70 either. And likewise I'm pretty relaxed about Berlin. I hit my big target last year so no real pressure this time.

Mr. Guappa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807933#Comment_120807933

Interesting discussion. I had the same question for my block and came to the same Tullamore-shaped conclusion. Might see you there. For me the main reason for racing was to try out shoes/gels/belts etc. in a race environment. Just need to decide now how much taper/recovery to allow - probably minimal for both.

Laineyfrecks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120828626#Comment_120828626

Yeah another really good reason too for the race. Hopefully I get to say hello😊

rizzee

Hope everyones training is going well! Are many heading to Kilcock this weekend?