Should we be paying for services/infrastructure in the north?

Kermit.de.frog

According to all polling a clear majority in the north wish to remain part of the UK at the present time.

They are currently in a financial crisis.

In recent months our government has announced sending some of our money north to make up their funding shortfalls. Not big amounts. Money for nursing places, college infrastructure (we've just comitted €40m to a Derry university project) etc but I think it could be a slippery slope particularly given we are expected to have a lot of surplus money in the coming years.

The "shared island" unit has already committed €1bn to projects in the north over 10 years.

I don't think we should send a cent north.

If they want to be part of the UK let London pay for their services. I think we shouldn't be paying for anything there.

Is this not a reasonable and logical position to take?

Now it seems they can't keep the lights on.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-66003650

Isn't there a growing risk we might get roped in to funding services London should be funding in the coming years?

ancapailldorcha

Absolutely. They're Irish so why shouldn't they be supported.

I'm not convinced about the fiscal responsibility argument you've advanced since you've argued several times for Ireland to leave the EU, something which would ruin the Irish economy to a much greater degree than Brexit did the UK's.

Strumms

We should be doing SFA for them financially. Unless we are getting a share of the tax take up there….

UK / Britain is an affluent territory and it should be exclusively looking after the needs and requirements of Northern Ireland. It’s their responsibility.

no Unionist will give a flying monkeys about it, they’ll just laugh. Won’t soften their minds as relates to us or a United Ireland. Might as well be throwing the money in a skip.

meanwhile people on housing and hospitals waiting lists here are looking at it in amazement.

greencap

It does further blur the line as to whether the north is really part of the UK.

I mean its already quite a vague difference outside of maps and all things written. And a change of mobile carrier.

You can be in the north and often not even know that you wandered in. Or you can know that you're there and not see any difference. And in either case nobody will chase you down and repatriate you. In either direction.

Thats why unionists are so set on establishing some kind of distinction, and why they strongly voted for Brexit. Being quietly and gradually made irrelevant is their biggest threat. So they wanted to get out of the EU, and to get a border on the island. And that's also why they oppose the Irish language acts.

If the two jurisdictions keep working together and growing more and more mutual bonds then unionism gets faded into obscurity. The bigger population and economy on the island becoming more and more relevant.

AerLingus747

if it's beneficial to the ROI in the long run, then why not?

Every likes to look at the immediate "oh my God we're giving money to the Brits" ...where with the likes of the University money, this is funding to help towards Irish students getting (in some cases better) training, with more availability of placements, courses and student accommodation than currently in Ireland...

Will people leave and not come back, of course, such is life.... however, there will always be people who come back, and if they are trained and enthusiastic to use their skills in Ireland, that's money well spent.

Agriculture is monumental in boarder regions too, is it wrong to invest in a meat factory in NI which primarily supplies ROI ?

There's tons of other examples

UK have their own problems, but it's a bit like throwing stones in glass houses trying to one up on it, with what is going on in ROI currently

Brussels Sprout

I could definitely see the rational for contributing to the upgrade of the A5 since that's also the main road to Donegal from Dublin. Some of the other stuff I'm not so sure about.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120763216#Comment_120763216

They aren't Irish, they are part of the UK. There's plenty of Irish citizens in Sydney, should we start funding that city too??

Danzy

Projects like this benefit all of Ireland, not doing them costs all of Ireland.

Str8outtaWuhan

No. Every person born in the north is automatically registered a subject of their king. They are not Irish even if they decide to identify as Irish, they ain't us. Giving our hard earned money to help the Brits to not do their duty with regards to the north is laughable. We should allow it to be run into the ground, then buy it cheap.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120781305#Comment_120781305

They are Irish.

Last time I checked, Australia wasn't looking to unify with Ireland.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058302240/should-we-be-paying-for-services-infrastructure-in-the-north

If you dont like that, wait til there is a united Ireland :)

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120781396#Comment_120781396

Last time I read the GFA, Ireland had given up it's claim on NI. Where is NI trying to unify with Ireland? Some politicians seem to want it. If the people wanted it, they'd just need to vote and they'd have it. Strange they haven't yet. Must not be as confident as you.

They can claim an Irish passport, but Ireland has nothing to do with NI. We make no laws, we make no tax money from them, we have no say in their affairs. Let the king pay for them.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120781384#Comment_120781384

As of 2021 there are 634,600 people with Irish passports living in Northern Ireland.

That is not "identifying" as Irish, that is Irish in a very fundamental way. How do they have Irish passports if they are not Irish?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120781427#Comment_120781427

Last time I checked, Northern Ireland's largest political party was the one which has been pro-unification for most of a century. Think there might be something there.

Ireland has a great deal to do with NI as evinced by the numerous councils, the EU, Sunningdale and so on....

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120781451#Comment_120781451

And yet, no vote to unify the Island. Until there is, they are subjects of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and NI and the Republic of Ireland should not be funding them. Especially with the mess we are in down here.

Str8outtaWuhan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120781442#Comment_120781442

Ireland also operated a cash for passports scheme up to recently. There is a big big difference between having a passport and being Irish. You haven't refuted the fact the EVERY man and woman born in NI is a registered subject of their king. That is automatic, claiming to be Irish is a choice for UK subjects.

nachouser

Maybe we could do some sort of "nurses for cash" scheme?

Wanderer78

we should be up there doing whatever we can to bring their economy more so towards our standard, the last thing we need when the inevitable border pole comes about is to have to do it all then!

ahnowbrowncow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120783676#Comment_120783676

But there's a shortage of nurses, we don't want people to start burning them.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058302240/should-we-be-paying-for-services-infrastructure-in-the-north

We’ve just contributed money to a Derry university to that they will take students from the Republic. Did you know that we’ve just committed money to QUB so they will take medical and nursing students from the republic who will do intern/foundation years in hospitals in the Republic? Teh A5 road will make it safer to get from many areas of the Republic to Donegal. Need I go on.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120787607#Comment_120787607

Your rationale is ridiculous. Should France pay for roads in Switzerland or Poland pay for roads in Romania?

They want to be part of the UK. London can fund the place. We shouldn't be giving a cent.

Why should we cut the Brits bill for the north?

Ramasun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120793990#Comment_120793990

I don't know if Poland is a net contributor to the EU yet but Ireland pays for roads in Romania now.

Paying for things like Universities in NI is a good thing. Stupid people do stupid things and they're on our doorstep.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120793998#Comment_120793998

I don't care if they are on our doorstep. The majority want to be part of the United Kingdom. If we want a motorway to Donegal then we can easily build it in our territory.

I don't care how stupid they are, we shouldn't be subsiding London for the north. Let them pay for it. Nothing to do with us.

To put it bluntly - they want Brit benefits - let them have those benefits. If British benefits mean they can't keep the lights on. so be it. That's what they want.

Packrat

Much as I've always said they need 10 years of good hard British poverty to concentrate their thoughts on reunification, I have come around to the idea of funding certain infrastructure or education projects which will benefit us and them in the long run. No streetlights though. Let them use their torches for a bit now first.

ZookeeperDub

Problem in the North is the political parties are totally incompetent. Like we have a certain level of incompetence down here but the North is at an all new level.

We will get a view of it soon enough when Sinn Fein get into power but we have no idea yet. Spending money in the North as the English has found is a waste of time in a lot of cases.

Should we stop? no we need to mend cross border relationships and this is one of the best ways to do it, but only if the benefit of these projects felt down here as well. Even if they run a border poll now I don't think a United Ireland will happen because

A. a lot in North don't want it

B. We cannot afford to fix the mess that is up the north so unless the rest of UK decide to bankroll for a few years then its a non runner. The rest of UK are in a worse situation than us so dont think so

ittakestwo

Everyone in the north is automatically a member of the irish state.

I think alot of sectarian problems in the north will need money spent on them to solve. Such as education and social housing which have been split on sectarian grounds till now. I would have no problem with dublin funding some problems that will help improve society. I think everyone in Ireland would benefit in the north becoming more stable socially.

Reality is we are one nation of people living on a small island in two jurisdictions. Of course we have major interests in one another. The GFA also says how the south and north can be unified. So ignoring problems there might not be a smart move.

Alot of people according to census live in the north but work in the south and pay tax. This will probably grow with WFH and the housing crises in the south. So it us not all one way traffic when it comes to money anyway.

If you're in donegal and drive to dublin which are both in the south but will be using the north. So contributing to road maintenance seems fair too etc.

ancapailldorcha

I think if you're serious about incorporating Northern Ireland any time soon, you're going to have to not only make peace with financially helping it now but probably paying a German-style solidarity tax in the long term. There's still serious division and resentment in Germany as a result of reunification. Bavaria poached much of the GDR's industry, many east German fled west at the first opportunity and even now, they feel like they're missing out and voting for the far right in large numbers.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120783661#Comment_120783661

So was everyone born in Ireland before independence. Did irish people only begin to exist in 1921? Everyone from Ireland north or south is irish. People in the north or no less irish than people from the south.

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120794193#Comment_120794193

Everyone in the north is automatically a member of the irish state.

Is that correct? they can apply for an Irish passport but they don't get to vote in Ireland which I would classify as been a "member of the Irish State".

Plenty of people in the UK during Brexit found great great great grannies etc that had a link to Ireland so they could get a passport, are they "a member of the Irish state"? I might be picking up wrong what you mean, so just trying to work out what you mean by this statement

The North has never been more stable, yes they have some issues but so do we. Yes we need to make some investments but we have a backlog in Ireland we need to fix first. If the rest of UK can offload the North onto us they will, taking the money themselves and using elsewhere. The North at the moment is not part of Rep of Ireland and the tax they pay does not come to us.

A lot of people live in North and work in South because of the wages in the North are a lot smaller compared to working in Republic.

Marcusm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120793998#Comment_120793998

Poland and Romania do not have a common border. The France-Switzerland border is generally mountainous. By contrast, the best way to reach parts of Donegal from the Republic is via Northern Ireland. The A5 does not link up strategically important parts of NI in the way that it does for the Republic.

Ramasun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120794296#Comment_120794296

We should have built that Monorail to Belfast on the EU tab when we had the chance.

Dr Turk Turkelton

We already send money to 3rd world hellholes all over the world, enough is enough.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120794224#Comment_120794224

"Is that correct? they can apply for an Irish passport but they don't get to vote in Ireland which I would classify as been a "member of the Irish State"."

They are Irish people living outside the State so can't vote in State elections, but they are fully regarded as Irish citizens just like an Irish person abroad is still an Irish citizen.

zell12

Should we be paying for services/infrastructure in the north?

No.

Capone79

My son was born in Armagh and feels more Irish than anyone, he has plans to move down south and complete an apprenticeship and contribute to society. I believe we should send money but only for education purposes to enhance our prospects and productivity.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120794304#Comment_120794304

I hear those things are awfully loud.

Ramasun

That Western Rail/Motorway M17 thing has it's merits but a decent road to Derry and Donegal would be higher on my shopping list, just to keep the road accidents down.

Packrat

Economic unity will happen whether anyone likes it or not. It's the obvious overflow for our current supply problems with accomodation, office rates, high wages etc.

I'd imagine the Unionists see enforced poverty as a way of making them less attractive to the south , but this is against the interests of the people and won't work in the long term.

They like to spin the story (along with help from some useful idiots here) that we can't afford them.

Thats patently total BS but if their wages and job opportunities go up, it'll suit us in the end and make any reunification cost lower.

Packrat

Edit. Double post.

Risteard81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120763293#Comment_120763293

You can't be repatriated as it is the same country - the country of Ireland.

Str8outtaWuhan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120794209#Comment_120794209

18 April 1949, technically.we were still under the dominion of a foreign king until the act was activated. Most ppl in their 80's could claim British citizenship. Everyone born in NI is automatically a British subject. Same as everyone born in cork in 1901 or on Westmeath in 1933.

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120794224#Comment_120794224

Citizenship = membership of a state. They have a birthright to be member of the irish state which you have already acknowledged. The irish state was set up for the irish nation of people which comes from all over Ireland. Infact the irish constitution pre the Good Friday Agreement was also claiming all of Ireland as her territory. Now the state only has jurisdiction over part of Ireland. But since alot of the nation doesn't live within its jurisdiction doesn't mean the state should ignore the rest of Ireland.

Although the north has never been as stable this doesn't mean it still has some very sectarian problems . There is still 20ft high peace walls running through Belfast. There is the same amount of them as in 1998 when the GFA was signed. Schooling and social housing is still segregated on sectarian divides. If London and Dublin decided to do a capitall investment project to try and eventually rid it of its sectarian dived would you have a problem with dublin contributing. Remember if there is a UI Dublin will have to deal with all these social problems

True about wages but obviously if people are crossing in their daily lives for work, to go to the nearest shop or school etc it shows how connected the nation is despite being in two jurisdictions. The people who work in the south are contributing to tax in the south. I think where investments are made which benefits everyone in Ireland whether it happen to on the other side of the border should have contributions from the south. Ie a road improvement in the north that people travelling from Donegal to Dublin will use etc.

Also it is not one way traffic in terms of benefits. Because of the north being in UK it is also in Nato and all of Irelands air space is protected at the expense of the UK.

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120794894#Comment_120794894

Citizenship they are entitled to after the GFA. But they have no voting power etc which I would classify as a member of the state. I guess just different opinions.

They have some sectarian issues, which has been massively reduced, but most of it is currently been stoked by the two main political parties so no I wouldn't support it unless those two parties are absolved of all political presence in Northern Ireland, otherwise you might as well just burn the money in Ireland for heating peoples homes because it would be more use.

The tit for tat nature of both parties are the reason why Northern Ireland is such a mess. Fix that first, money certainly won't as we have seen since the GFA.

Mainland Europe already exists with multiple countries having borders etc. People in France can use Belgium and German roads for instance. I drive in the UK for work sometimes and on holidays I have travelled in UK and in France. Should I pay for the roads?

We don't need to start talking about protecting airspace, had nothing to do with this conversation.

BalcombeSt4

Yea, jesus, there's barely a part of Donegal's buildings still with a roof on top.

BalcombeSt4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120793990#Comment_120793990

Well, we should help the Brits because in 1846 - 52 there was a potato famine and the British helped pay for meats, corn and dairy products for all the poor Irish people, if they didn't nearly 2 million people would have died.

BalcombeSt4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120794224#Comment_120794224

People living on the border like Slab Murphy live in both the north and south. There back door opens up to south Armagh & the front door opens to north Louth.

Everlong1

There's an enormous amount of co-operation between the health services North and South which benefits southern Irish citizens as much as NI citizens. Any co-operation between North and South can only be a positive thing given the levels of sectarianism and distrust that still exists between us - anything that shows the citizens of both jurisdisctions that the other side doesn't have two heads.

Shocking to see the tone of some of the posts on this thread.

Packrat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120795076#Comment_120795076

Nice bit of trolling there.

I suggest you acquaint yourself with the causes of The Great Hunger.

Hint: potato crops failed in most North western European countries but only here did around 1.2 million people die and 1.5 million emigrate as refugees.

The root cause of that event was the pyramid scheme of land ownership in western counties with absentee English landlords sitting a atop that pyramid.

Extractive economic models like applied here usually end in poverty of the masses if not societal and population collapse.

But you already know all this of course.

I'm just posting the rebuttal in case anyone you've misinformed in your post actually believes it.

Don't bother replying because this reply isn't for you and I won't be entering any discussion with you on proven and accepted historical facts.

greencap

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120794806#Comment_120794806

yeah i said nobody will repatriate you. 

ittakestwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120795007#Comment_120795007

Anyone born in Ireland or the islands and seas off her were entitled to citzienship as of the irish constitution from 1938. The GFA just ment we can't change that but i dont think anyone wants to.

Once you have citizenship you're part of that state therefore a member. There is nothing stopping anyone from the north moving to a constituent where they can vote etc. Whereas if you didn't have citizenship you couldn't. Also i think they have changed presidential elections or will so that people from the north can vote.

Some of the sectarian issues in the north in social housing and education will need capital investment. I get that people vote for sectarian parties because they're sectarian. If you're brought up only living in an estate with other unionists or nationlists and only going to school with other unionists and nationlists then the sectarian culture will be hard to break. There needs to be more incouragment at government level for intergretation. This is inevitably will cost money. But shouldn't the irish state contribute in this given that if there is a UI that investment would be of huge benefit.

False equivalence of you driving on roads in mainland Europe. This is of no or little benefit to the irish state. But somone driving from donegal to dublin and using roads in the north is of benefit. As the road users are going from one part of the state to the other but using roads not in that state. This is just one example. As pointed out by someone already there is already alot cross border cooperation in health and other sectors.

The airspace example was showing that just because the irish state does invest in the north doesn't mean it is one way traffic. The irish state gets its airspace protected for free by the fact that part of Ireland is in the UK. So it might not be so shocking the state might pay for something to its advantage in the north.

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120798207#Comment_120798207

It's not a "False equivalence". You can drive from Donegal to Dublin without going via North. Irish tax payers should be used for roads in Ireland.

As I said the biggest issue in the North is the political parties, you are never going to fix anything you remove both parties.

If the people of Northern Ireland want more money invested then they should vote out those parties because the root of all issues are with those parties. They have had long enough since the GFA and done nothing but bicker with millions handed to them every year.

The airspace has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation.