Should Men get Pension Earlier than Women ?

Quitelife

Attended a Pension course this week around Pension Schemes in Companys, old DBs , DCs , Contribution rates etc.

Interesting stuff but the one take away for me was listening to the Actuaries basically saying Men die 4 years younger than females for various reasons and thats a constant over past 50 years .

For Equality should Men get the state Pension 4 years earlier than women so that both Male & Female get the same pay outs from their years in employment & Existence ?

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058301237/should-men-get-pension-earlier-than-women

If anything the pension for men should be higher then, based on the actuarial calculations , but no doubt for equality sake lol they are not

ancapailldorcha

No.

tesla_newbie

Yes but not white straight men as they can live off their privilege

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058301237/should-men-get-pension-earlier-than-women

What do you want to go and open that can of worms for? 😳

https://www.esri.ie/news/ireland-has-a-gender-pension-gap-of-35-per-cent

https://archive.ph/HAJj8

https://www.breakingnews.ie/amp/ireland/woman-96-wants-new-regulation-in-bid-to-receive-non-contributory-state-pension-1443031.html

What you’re suggesting wouldn’t do anything for equality, and bringing it up would only draw attention to the inequality in terms of women’s financial independence and security in Irish society.

ahnowbrowncow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725839#Comment_120725839

They're not mutually exclusive issues.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725859#Comment_120725859

I know that much, but if like the OP one attempts to argue for a reduction in the pension age for men in order to further gender equality, then people are going to look at what greater opportunities there are for women that men are apparently missing out on.

Interesting notion indeed. I’m from a generation where, at the time I was looking at possible careers to pursue coming up to Inter Cert, men got a higher salary than women doing exact same job in the Civil Service. It puzzled me greatly, my mother explained that this was always the case where she worked (Sealink/British Rail) as women were required to give up work when they married and the man’s salary was expected to cover a full household/family. I would argue against the discrimination against the woman who continued to work and remained single, versus the neighbouring bachelor doing the exact same job with no more expenses. Interesting conversations were had, my mother arguing that although unfair it was based on statistical probabilities.

Quitelife

Basically men in Ireland live to 80 & Females live to 84.

So at Pension age of 66 Men get the state pension for 14 years & Females get it for 18 years.

Furze99

You can also argue that some men work in more physically demanding jobs and should be allowed to retire earlier that men & women in desk jobs.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725788#Comment_120725788

just to expand on ancapailldorcha's rather short point:

no.

techman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726454#Comment_120726454

And since the working from home phenomenon took off the disparity between physical jobs and desk jobs has only increased because that person has to drive to work every day for a usual 7am start. Yet no tax reliefs whatsoever. Is it any wonder it is so difficult to attract construction workers now

Conall Cernach

Just make it easier to get invalidity pension due to old age. If a man has been laying blocks for 40 odd years he is probably not going to make it to pension age still doing that and is it fair to say that he should retrain for some non physical job at 60?

CalamariFritti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726465#Comment_120726465

Since the OP at least made an argument with regards to life expectancy, a credible opener one might say, would you two care to make an actual counter argument, with some sort of point in it, rather than just 'no'?

magicbastarder

sometimes you just can't muster the energy to make a coherent response to what you think is a ludicrous suggestion.

anyway

so men should get their pensions 4 years early? lets say they currently start drawing it down when they retire. the suggestion would be to start paying them 4 years before they retire. what happens if they retire earlier than that 4 years?

pensions are not designed to be a 'you paid X in, you get Y out', they're designed to be an income after retirement until you die.

what happens if i die one year after retiring? is someone going to argue 'well, mb didn't get the value of his pension that he should have, his estate should sue for the remainder'

im short, it's not how pensions work or what they are for.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726520#Comment_120726520

Pensions are based on actuarial statistics so yes, "you paid in x, you (statistically) get out y" applies. But since the EU gender directive, it's no longer legal to use gender in the calculations for annuities, life insurance and motor insurance.

It's still allowed based on age. E.g. a public servant with 40 years' service who takes early retirement (cost neutral early retirement aka actuarial reduction) gets a lower pension than if he had the same 40 years' service but stayed until the normal retirement age. Also, a public servant with 30 years' service gets a lower pension than one with 40 years if they both retire at the same age.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726503#Comment_120726503

For me, it's the violation of the principle of equality. We're all supposed to be equal so why should have the population get their pension 4 years earlier than the other half based on average statistics? If you want to draw more of a pension, I suggest saving for a private one and living a healthy lifestyle.

Quitelife

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726695#Comment_120726695

The Average male gets their pension for 14 years - the average female gets the state pension for 18 years .

Thats not equal, if females were to get the state pension at 70 they too would get the state pension for 14 years - that would be equal!

magicbastarder

now someone calculate what the average lifetime earnings of an irish person are, even taking on the assumption that the average irishwoman gets 4 years longer pension. do women still come out on top?

Quitelife

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726877#Comment_120726877

They are more likely to get the same in modern Ireland, most managers in many workplaces are female these days. They rightly have the same access to the Education system & in many courses are the top performers & getting the best jobs . Females that stay at home to rear children are very much in the minority in modern Ireland.

Males die 4 years younger so get 4 years less pension from the state!

Streifi

With that argument should smokers retire early too? Or obese people? Or those with family histories of certain diseases?

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726984#Comment_120726984

Smokers can get higher annuity rates.

https://www.aviva.ie/content/dam/aviva-public/ie/pdfs/annuities-customer-guide.pdf

"Your health can also be an important factor in determining how much income you will receive. If you or your Designated Dependant have ever suffered from medical conditions such as cancer, a heart attack or either of you smoke, we may be able to offer you a higher pension income through our enhanced annuity. Your financial broker will be able to easily check if you can avail of this option"

Streifi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120727034#Comment_120727034

But that's private pensions. Not state or DB pensions. DC or private I'm totally on board that you should be able to take whatever over whatever years you like. It's your money but state or DB we can't punish people for living healthy/their genes/choices

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726667#Comment_120726667

Pensions are based on actuarial statistics so yes, "you paid in x, you (statistically) get out y" applies. 

Pensions aren’t just based on actuarial statistics; for private pensions they’re also based on the value of the individuals investment, and how the pension fund performs over time, where the value of the fund may rise as well as fall, meaning upon retirement the value of a pension, or the returns on their investment, may be far less than the amount invested by the individual. Public pensions aren’t the same because they aren’t reliant on private investment, they come from public funds and the value of their investment is pretty much guaranteed.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726894#Comment_120726894

Most managers in workplaces are women these days? Where’d you get that idea? Women that stay at home to rear children aren’t really in the minority in modern Ireland either; now men that stay at home to rear children, they’re definitely in the minority in modern Ireland -

• Nearly all of the people (94.3%) who were looking after home or family in 2019 were women, although the number of men in this grouping more than doubled in the ten years up to 2019, rising from 7,000 to 19,900.

The number for women btw is 329,000

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-wamii/womenandmeninireland2019/work/

Males die 4 years younger so get 4 years less pension from the state!

Because they’re dead. The State doesn’t support dead people with a State pension. It’s difficult enough for people who are living to qualify for the State pension, and the fact that the State doesn’t pay dead people a pension has nothing to do with equality. Lowering the age at which men could qualify for the State pension while maintaining the current age for women wouldn’t be equality, it would be regarded as unlawful age discrimination.

Don’t be giving idiots ideas! 😒

HazeDoll

Quietlife, have you noticed that you refer to people as 'men' or 'females'?

Men are humans. The word 'female' could refer to livestock, insects, even plants.

Why don't you use the word 'women'? You think of men as people, obviously. What does your word choice reveal about your feelings about women?

And that's before we get into any more nuanced ideas about gender identity.

blackbox

What about smokers?

When should smokers get their pensions?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726431#Comment_120726431

Women. The word is "women".

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058301237/should-men-get-pension-earlier-than-women

That is a faulty conclusion drawn from a misunderstood statistic.

Allow me to demonstrate why men on average die younger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbAJn2mKDUM

Why reward stupidity?

Now please allow me to say some home truths about men for balance.

Men are more efficient and work super hard. But self preservation doesn't seem to come into it.

Men will wonder for years whether they can trust a woman enough to marry her ..whereas men who know each other only five mins will happily put their actual life in another man's hands.

I seem to recall when I was younger my dad found some youths misbehaving near our house they were throwing stones and bits of lighted wood. Instead of doing nothing or calling the guards he decided to get a wooden club from the attic and go and confront them by hitting all the stones he threw at them with the club like a baseball bat. He was walloping bits of fiery wood through the air!

Anyhow now that this Trad Wife trend is taking over ... men will NEVER be able to retire! I dont think the right likes early retirement anyway.

Ardillaun

I don’t think the gap between male and female life expectancy can be fully explained by lifestyle choices. For example, men develop hardening of the arteries earlier and their immunity is not as effective.

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120732668#Comment_120732668

Why are men charged more by insurance companies?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726454#Comment_120726454

You can make that argument without reference to gender at all — "bricklayers should get the pension earlier than poets".

But of course if you follow that thought through, the argument is not really that people should get the pension earlier if they are in jobs that bugger their knees — that would confer a gratuitous bonus on bricklayers who, despite the job, don't have buggered knees and impose a gratuitous penalty on poets who, notwithstanding all that lying around on chaises longues smelling daffodils, have buggered knees. The logic is that we should pay a pension to people with buggered knees. And, lo, we already do.

And, yes, if you're wondering, more is paid in disability to male claimants that to female claimants. We arrive at that outcome without ever paying attention to the gender of claimants — we assess on the basis of disability. Whether because there are more men in strenuous jobs or for other reasons, more men qualify for disability pension than women.

And exactly the same applies to the retirement pension. The big winners in the retirement pension are not women; they are pensioners who live for a long time. As it happens, more of them are women, but that is no consolation to a women who drops dead at the age of 67. Conversely the man who lives to 105 is in no way penalised by the system for being a man.

The point about the retirement pension is to provide you with a basic income which will never run out, thus protecting you from the risk of destitution if you exhaust your savings while still alive. Obviously, the benefit of that accrues to the people who live the longest — that's the whole idea. Equally obviously, more women than men will be in this group, just as more men than women are in the disabled group. In neither case is that a problem which should lead us to skew entitlements or payment rates on the basis of a claimant's sex.

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120732673#Comment_120732673

I would be all for people in jobs that require physical labor to be able to retire at like .. 45 ?? Because that is when that job becomes tough. Also it would really help recruit into the building industry and help the housing crisis!

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725839#Comment_120725839

Is it really a can of worms?

A gender gap in pension payments does not in itself imply in equality. From the first link;

 the research establishes that lower relative years of work experience among women increases the gender pension gap. The study shows a significant difference in the number of years worked by men and women. 93 per cent of retired men had worked for more than 30 years, compared to 33 per cent of retired women. Three per cent of retired men had never worked, compared to 22 per cent of retired women.

That alone will be the biggest driver of different, but completely fair pensions.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120732669#Comment_120732669

Because males have higher death rates than females at all ages, even among newborns and infants. That can't be accounted for by risk-taking behaviour or lifestyle choices.

(That's not to say that risk-taking behaviour has no impact - obviously it does. But the main impact on lifetime mortality rates comes from the higher death rate of males in their 70s, as compared to females. That can be partly explained by risk-taking behaviour in earlier life if you think about, e.g., taking up smoking, but there's more going on than that.)

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120732684#Comment_120732684

Why are infants and newborns driving cars?? Are you serious??? Dude.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120732687#Comment_120732687

Who said anything about driving cars?

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120732734#Comment_120732734

Why do you think men's driving insurance is so much more expensive than women's?

Bear in mind the life expectancy diff in the uk currently is only 3 yrs. With women at 82 and men at 79.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/281671/life-expectancy-united-kingdom-uk-by-gender/

Peregrinus

Wait. Are you trying to draw conclusions about life expectancy from motoring insurance premiums rather than from, you know, actual life insurance premiums?

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120732740#Comment_120732740

About behaviour yes I am.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/PjQLMLxOrQY

I will tell you what how about a housework allowance for stay at home parents then you can have your 3 missing pension years?

Seriously do you realize how many women are in dire straits in old age because the stay at home work THEY do isn't recognized and they due to inequality in workplaces didnt even get a private pension despite working years in companies?

Retired men are already much richer than retired women. We are done here. Or at least i am.

Peregrinus

Men tend engage in riskier behaviour than women. This is not in dispute, and is the subject of many hilarious youtube videos, for those who like that kind of thing.

However, that's not the primary reason why women draw their pensions for longer than men. A moment's thought will show that men in their 20s and 30s risking death by doing stupid things doesn't increase the likelihood of death for a man in his 60s or 70s who, by definition, has already made it safely through the years of stupidity. The sex difference in motor insurance premiums declines with age and reaches a minimum at around age 60. After that it starts to creep back up again, but this is not because men in their 70s or 80s are riskier drivers than women; rather, it is because in that age group men have higher instances than women of the various health conditions that can adversely affect driving ability.

cheese sandwich

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120730703#Comment_120730703

I prefer “chest feeders” myself

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120732764#Comment_120732764

You mean this?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120732743#Comment_120732743

You are done? Why?

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120733180#Comment_120733180

Never argue in a fair way in an unfair world.

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120733426#Comment_120733426

Or run when your nonsense is refuted.

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120733597#Comment_120733597

Sometimes its about running away from certain types of people yes.

Types of people as in, "those who know very well what they're talking about, and write in a very well informed way."

artanevilla

Shorter people have a higher life expectancy than tall people, should tall lads be able to retire early?

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120733669#Comment_120733669

sure yeah

phill106

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120730198#Comment_120730198

From Middle English female, an alteration of Middle English femele, from Old French femele, femelle (“female”), from Medieval Latin fēmella (“a female”), from Latin fēmella (“a girl, a young female, a young woman”), diminutive of fēmina (“a woman”). The English spelling and pronunciation were remodelled under the influence of male, which is otherwise not etymologically related. Contrast woman, which is etymologically built on man (as in person).

HazeDoll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120734100#Comment_120734100

I know what 'female' means, thanks. And if I didn't I could have looked it up myself, just like you obviously needed to.

A man is always human. You have never heard of anybody seeing a man bald eagle or buying a pet man dog.

A woman is always human.

A female, like a male, can be human but can also be a mammal or an invertebrate or lots of other things, even a piece of hardware like a socket joint.

The OP's uses 'men' more than 'males' and 'women' less than 'females'. To me, this indicates that the OP doesn't really consider women to be people in the same way men are. It's a little subconscious slip, a giveaway.

It's helpful because it means that we can cheerfully disregard everything the OP says.