Considering pulling out of Union with CIE

Electric Gypsy

I joined CIE nearly two years ago now which is unionised company. As far as I can tell when I started working for them we were mislead / lied to about having to join a union as part of the terms of our employment. I was later told that what it actually is, is that one has to join a union as part of their conditions of employment but that it's not mandatory to stay joined to one.... in other words, you can join one and pay €5 for one week and then leave. But then somebody else who worked in HR told me that they actually can't even enforce that we join a union first day at all. So I don't know which is true.

Our training inspector told us that we've three weeks to join either NBRU or SIPTU, and that if we didn't that the money would come out of our wages anyway, or something like that. I took my time deciding which to go for and I think I ended up taking closer to 4 weeks and didn't hear a thing about the fact that I hadn't joined one.

Most people in the company say that the unions are weak and that they used to be stronger. A lot of staff seem to think you have to be joined one. I heard that a decade or more ago there used to be only one union in the company, and that when SIPTU came in that it was great for the company because the two union spent so much time blaming each other that they ended up being weaker as a whole. It's apparently like US politics. There's a lot of talk out from both non-rep driver and rep drivers about how we should not drive buses with defects, or buses we're not trained on, or buses with the tax discs out of date; and that if we did and then had an accident "that we'd be fcuked". But whenever I try and ask them to provide an example of when that actually happened and what was the actual consequence for the employee, they fudge it. Also recently I noticed that one of the union reps who's all for this kind of talk regularly drives defected buses and buses he's not trained on!

There seems to be an undertone from some reps that higher management are rootless, and that they'll look for any excuse screw the employee. They never mention any specific names when they talk this way. But in my experience with higher management, I find them all fine to deal with. The union will also say "don't ever go upstairs without a union rep" a lot, and that if you do that that they'll "tear me a new a$shole". A lot of the staff seems to think that the company will pick on you if you're not joined a union, but I just can't help but think they're stupid for thinking this. I've had one or two problems with inspectors but the funny thing they could well be join the same union as myself, so I don't know how that in making a formal complaint. Sometimes even the inspectors talk about 'the company' as if to imply they're not it!

Ironically one of the very few people I've had a problem with was a union rep himself. I didn't know who the person was at the time but he was a rep of my own union. I had taken over the bus from him as per my duty and he stayed on the be dropped off passing the bus station. A few minutes later the bus displayed a red 'stop' warning light on the dash and steam began to come out the engine at the back. I wanted handle the matter the by the book way, but this guy was in hurry to get home. Being more experienced he advised me to drive on. But given that I was the driver I said it'd be my call. After pulling over and waiting for an answer from the control centre he grew impatient and snapped at me... shouting and cursing in front of passengers. He then just hopped on another bus that pulled in at that bus stop. I spoke to my rep about it at the time, and he said I'd be perfectly entitled to make a formal complaint about him, or that (if I could find out who he was) that he could have a quiet word on my behalf. I only found out that the guy was a rep of my union 2 months later and got back onto the original rep I reported it to. The fella apologised about the incident and explained that he wasn't feeling well that evening and thankfully that matter is dealt with. But it just put things somewhat in perspective for me... to think that I was supposed to believe that this guy and myself had "united" against the company!

It seems any time I have a concern that the union isn't a whole lot of help. It often wouldn't feel like the sort of thing that would warrant picking up the phone for. They seem reluctant to answer hypothetical questions, so they're view is that you should give them the call only when the problem arises in reality and therefore you don't have the peace of mind to know where you stand in advance of it. Any time I've had an issue with shifts being changed unexpectedly on my roster, or over-time sheets not being paid, I've come to the conclusion that it's best to just handle the matter myself by going directly to higher management and cutting out the middle man. In the time you've explained it to the union rep you could've explained to a manager. The union will sort this issue, but they don't acknowledge the ongoing problem of how it's not worth the hassle of following the problem up for the sake of €20. And the union reps seem to prefer go to the middle managers in doing so... who'd probably have been the very ones you'd have had no success with. On another occasion I remember one of the reps getting somewhat irritated when I asked him about how ABC pension schemes work because he didn't know, and didn't want to admit it.

It seems the only thing that they're good for is if you have a serious crash on the road.... in which case I'm not convinced that they'd be any better at representing me than myself. If I did - lets say - drive a bus into a bridge, what could a union rep say to defend me anyway? Or is it the case that you get brownie points in the company's eyes merely because you're joined a union, irrespective of how well they can defend you? I mean in such circumstances you're either going to get fired or not, and the answer is that they're not going to fire you if you've just had one issue to date, so I don't see the point in being represented. Sure, some of the reps mean well, and will give you a smile or so... but what good is that if they can't help me.

There was quite a bit of talk out of one rep about how union reps don't get paid. I mean they get paid for the actual union duty time when they sit and meet with the company, but I'm not sure do they get any general payment for being on call to people who've problems. This I'd like to know.

I only know of one person who's not in a union. He had the exact same thought process as me, and said he never had an issue. He said that management wanted him to join a union for the sake of a few weeks in 2017 when there was some sort of strike... not sure if he did or not in the end. It would be awkward for him passing the picket I guess. The unions are often criticised by senior staff on the whatsapp group. Their defence is often "you've know idea how much work goes on behind the scenes". Of course it's impossible to know what goes on behind the scenes but I wonder would it be a fair assumption that they put in the same effort in that regard that they do with me with my own experiences of them. It might be unfair in a way that I'm being working under conditions that are negotiated by unions when I'm not part of a union. There's a current agreement that was excepted by CIE staff at the moment anyway, whereby they can't negotiate for any more conditions for another few years. So basically they're not of so much use for now anyway. I do wonder if I'm missing something here.

The only reason for staying in my union is that it would be a bit awkward passing them when I'd see them around! I would however like to do it discretely. I suspect I'd have to go to payroll. But would it go unnoticed or not by higher management is what I'd like to know.

AyeGer

I've got quite a bit out of our union down the years. My view is if everyone was to leave the union then the union ceases to exist. What will happen to pay and other negotiated benefits then?

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725137#Comment_120725137

Jeez maybe those who are good at their job would thrive and those who aren't wouldn't?

How is it that in a booming economy one particular sector is permanently a sh1tshow? Constant moaning, threats, motions, work to rules, people at the pit of their collar, etc etc

The OP is ahead of their time, they're dead right.

AndrewJRenko

Does CIE actually employ people? I thought you’d be an employee of DB or BE?

AyeGer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725305#Comment_120725305

There are already provisions for dealing with underperforming employees. It’s up to management and HR to use those provisions.

Electric Gypsy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725337#Comment_120725337

Oh yes, the guy who couldn't fathom how I'm capable of seeing how much of a cigarette is left when held in someone's hand from 7 yards away.

Electric Gypsy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725305#Comment_120725305

I wouldn't say I'm ahead of my time. The idea of believing that the money spent on being in a union isn't worth its while, isn't considered modern! I'd just like to meet that only guy (that I'm aware of) who's not joined a union one more time. In my case, given that the unions can't negotiate new terms for the next two years, then why in the name of God are all the employees who are due to retire before then still joined a union? Fair enough if current negotiations will effect my further salary, but it won't effect theirs.

The unions do indeed seem funny. If you mention a real problem to them they run for the hills, but last week when the company decided the put in parking sensors on some of the buses without consulting the union, they were up in arms about it. How is putting a parking sensor going to impose on drivers?!

Electric Gypsy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725137#Comment_120725137

Well go on then, what did you get out of them?

In my case I'm just suspicious as to why we were lied to! Why would the company want us to join the union? Doesn't make sense.

It's also funny that a lot of the things that the union are arguing for are to the company's benefit. The last union update mentioned something to do with correcting times on a route, cutting of branches, and traffic congestion. None of that really effects the employee. Does the company like to have the union present so that they can be reminded of when they get lazy.

AyeGer

I wont be going into the details here but i am very happy with being a member of the union. You asked for peoples opinion on pulling out of the union. I gave you my opinion. I hit a nerve which often happens when people are confronted with the reality that any union negotiated benefits go to all employees, even those that let their co workers pay for the union.

Electric Gypsy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120728863#Comment_120728863

You didn't hit a nerve because I already said that myself in the original post.

AyeGer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120728869#Comment_120728869

I think you've already made your decision and are just looking for that decision to be validated. Many have left our union but they can still avail of the benefits the union negotiate. It is what it is. I choose to pay my union fees because i look at the bigger picture. If everybody left to save themselves the fees the unions would cease to exist.

I used to work in the private sector in a non union American multinational. I seen some good workers fail to progress because they just weren't great at selling themselves and I've seen some absolute bluffers get on very well despite being lazy feckers who happened to get in with the right people.

No system is perfect. Its just my opinion that by and large unions are a good thing, I understand well there are plenty who disagree with me though.

stargazer 68

TLDR

I'm nearly 20 years with the HSE and not in the union. I don't think I have lost out by not being in a union. I could be wrong.

If I ever have an issue and need union representative I have been told I can join up immediately! So .......

AyeGer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120728897#Comment_120728897

What have you gained in the last 20 years that the union negotiated. Were you part of the job evaluation scheme?

And you are right of course you could join up again and get union representation. But who pays to keep the union active all that time? Its your co workers.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058301219/considering-pulling-out-of-union-with-cie

There's a lot of talk out from both non-rep driver and rep drivers about how we should not drive buses with defects, or buses we're not trained on, or buses with the tax discs out of date; and that if we did and then had an accident "that we'd be fcuked". But whenever I try and ask them to provide an example of when that actually happened and what was the actual consequence for the employee, they fudge it.

You're a professional driver and need your union reps to tell you the consequences of driving a defective vehicle or one without valid tax? It's not the company you need to worry about its the Garda and RSA inspectors, the operator is always responsible for the vehicle being road legal and safe. If you are involved in an RTC your lack of training on the vehicle could have you in trouble for operating it. The company will send you out in any old junker as there will be little consequences for the person sending you out, there can be serious consequences for you though.

stargazer 68

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120728907#Comment_120728907

I have received the same benefits as everyone else in the hse. No I wasn't part of the job evaluation scheme because we had to apply for that- they are currently 2 years behind on evaluations

And you are correct, colleagues keep unions active but that seems to be dwindling imo

AyeGer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120728930#Comment_120728930

Yeah it does appear to be dwindling, at some point the government might think the unions aren't worth negotiating with anymore, its not easy to foresee how that will work out. I suspect our pay and other benefits could take a hit.

People often gripe about the Public service pay being too high and the so called gold plated pensions, the generous holiday leave and the longer sick pay scheme, jobs for life etc. Without a union what could happen then.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120728802#Comment_120728802

It seems that you have a better memory than me on whatever grudge you are carrying. Are you avoiding the question about CIE though?

Electric Gypsy

@AyeGer I think you've already made your decision and are just looking for that decision to be validated.

You were a little too eager to use that line. The intention of the thread was to reveal my current thoughts on the matter and have an open discussion. What's interesting is that the union wasn't sold to us on the basis that they negotiate our pay; it was sold to us solely on the basis that they'll have our back... and they don't. That's what I've the problem with. 

In your first post you said

"i am very happy with being a member of the union."

but in a later post you say

"I choose to pay my union fees because i look at the bigger picture."

Your later post here implies that you understand why your colleagues aren't happy with the smaller picture, and perhaps that you aren't either. Yet earlier on you said that you are "very happy" on the whole.

Electric Gypsy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120728927#Comment_120728927

I did not say that. I said it's the sort of thing that they'd be harping on about... you know, to sound like they're justifying their existence. And it is the company you need to worry about as they might pressure you to drive it anyway. You'd be surprised how you'd behave if you were on the spot... when handed over a bus in service with 70 passengers on it and find out that one of the discs was out of date. It mightn't be the easiest situation to handle.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120729602#Comment_120729602

The 1st driver should have refused to use the vehicle. It's not the dispatchers licence, living and possibly worse on the line when driving a defective or illegal vehicle. Putting a defect in the log book won't be a defence if you end up in court.

They are quick to pull up drivers for any mistake, yet will happily let them out in a vehicle that's not road legal. And the union can't even agree that this is an issue!

Electric Gypsy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120730903#Comment_120730903

So I'm told they're happy to pull people up for any mistakes. I'm meant to believe that they're unreasonable but I've never been pulled up. I did hit a car mirror and lost my safe driving award because of it. The union rep was very quick to whinge about this saying "they took that €250 off you because of an accident that wasn't even your fault". Little did he know that it was my fault... and of course the money wasn't mine to begin with.

It's an issue yes; the unions just say "put in the defect sheet" not realising that you wouldn't be telling them such a thing if you hadn't already done that. They say just keep refusing to drive the buses as you'll still get paid for your time. It's as simple as that though. With the newer type BE double decker (type with mid door) about 1 in 3 of them have faulty camera monitors for reversing and seeing middle door. You can't see when people upstairs are standing when you're taking a corner. I often get wedged in behind other buses at bus stops and have to wait a few minutes until the bus in front pulls out because I can't reverse. The NBRU rep told me they can't fix the cameras because they "don't have enough work" for the camera contractor company because some of the buses aren't in the yard when they arrive to fix them! Hmmm. I've had to get passengers to get out of the bus to guide me to reverse. There's a few senior drivers who refuse to take over these buses in service... which means that all the passengers have to wait 10 minutes for a new bus to be brought down from the depot and for the passengers to be transferred. In spite of all this there's still not enough of an incentive to get the camera monitors fixed. In fact there was a guy recently who came out about it on the union whatsapp group and called a spade a spade about these safety issues, and some of his posts got deleted by a union rep admin.

Jim2007

Hmm you seem very unhappy with the whole situation, have you considered perhaps moving on???

Electric Gypsy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120732750#Comment_120732750

You're automatically assuming that because I think the unions aren't pulling their weight that I'm not happy with the job in general? You ask me if I've considered moving on, as if to imply that everything would fine wherever else I'd end up. I'd take a look back at your posts and maybe ask yourself if you consider yourself as a poster that contributes to this site.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120736986#Comment_120736986

You are not going to change organisations as big as CIE or a union and as I said you seem unhappy with your work situation. So you either exit the union, suck it up or move on, those are they choices.

Electric Gypsy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120737716#Comment_120737716

Well I obviously already know all that. The question was never how can I change the union. If you've no knowledge or opinion on the issue, then why did you have to post at all? 

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120743376#Comment_120743376

You asked on a public forum, expect to get an array of opinion not just the ones you'd like to hear.

Electric Gypsy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120745454#Comment_120745454

But you don't have an opinion about whether the union are worth their salt or not. You just reminded me of the options which I already put forward myself in the original post. You ask if I've considered moving on, as if to imply that the average individual isn't capable of asking themselves such a question.

And you're not willing to share anything from your own experience, so why post at all? Sure, I might expect a few unhelpful remarks on a public forum, but that doesn't mean I can't question you on on your remarks.

Hellrazer

Honestly Im not a big fan of Unions ever since I had lets say an experience with one rep.

The actual union rep tried to get me fired.

I was only started in a job and the Reps car was in for work - BTW I was 18 at the time - 30 years ago. The car was a UK import and as such back then all the parts were different and we couldnt match them up. Anyway after a couple of days going back wards and forwards he arrives in and has a meeting with my boss in which it was brought up that I should be fired for incompetence - I was a junior and even teh manufacturer couldnt match the parts up - absolutely no fault of mine whatsoever but he had a bee in his bonnet about it.

Anyway I wasnt fired and built up my career over the next few years. Im working in this dealership around 10 years later as a senior manager and who arrives in only this rep asking me to join the Union and that it was compulsory in the dealer that all staff are in a Union etc etc - To say I tore the poor bloke a new one is an understatement. I think I actually threw him out of the garage but I let it be known who I was and what he had tried to do 10 years previously.

So no Im not a fan of Unions and especially the well entrenched ones who in my opinion do nothing other than look after themselves.

Employment law these days is so far in favour of the employee that a Union is basically useless unless its an old semi-state body where unions are so far entrenched that the companies will never change.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120725305#Comment_120725305

Oh I'd love for your ilk to be reporting to me.

Non-organised workforce would be a god send

AyeGer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120746152#Comment_120746152

You were unfortunate to encounter a bad union rep.

You mention the Semi State which happens to have one of the best pay and conditions in the country. They didn’t even get a pay cut when the rest of the Public Sector took pay cuts during the crash.