General Premier League Thread 2023-24 Mod Note in op 27/6/23 And 21/05/24

rob316

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121317859#Comment_121317859

Who are the toxic players?

Pogba was a problem, Ronaldo was a problem. The manager hasn't got a tune out of the 10 players he's brought in. Antony? Who approved that, he's one of the worst wingers I've seen nevermind he cost 100m

Necro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121317605#Comment_121317605

I don't remember him publicly having a go at Maguire tbf but there's definitely a knock on effect of him admonishing English players as the press has become increasingly negative towards him since with "leaks" intensifying etc

giveitholly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318895#Comment_121318895

Exactly,he has brought in these players,nobody knows including himself what kind of style or formation he wants to play. And now that results have been very poor at the start of the season,its suddenly the Glazers fault again. They gave him 450 million to spend in three transfers windows so Ten Hag should have no excuses and should at the very least be a top 4 team(which they still might if he miraculously turns it around)

giveitholly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318923#Comment_121318923

It stems from this interview where Ten Hag basically says that if Maguire doesn't feel he is good enough to fight for his place then he should go. Now wouldn't Ten Hag have been better off saying he thought Maguire was good enough even of privately he thought the opposite

Remember after the 2018 champions league final and at the start of preseason klopp publicly backed Karius even though he knew that he was going to be replaced by Allison.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/harry-maguire-manchester-united-west-ham-b2392389.html

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121318895#Comment_121318895

Well there's something major wrong there and it's been like that for a long time now.

You have a coach who did an incredible job with Ajax. Four consecutive Eredivisie titles, he leaves and they finished fourth and now are down the bottom of the table.

He comes to United and they start to look promising and now are sliding. Ajax got better and better under him.

He's on the hot seat now but I don't think it's his fault. There's something very wrong there and I don't think it's the players causing it. They might be a sympton with their performances affected by what's going on.

Theres a lot of non-football people at United and I suspect the problem lies there.

giveitholly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121319044#Comment_121319044

How did the non football people leave Haaland free at the back post for City's second goal last Sunday? Ten Hag got that team comfortably into the top 4 last season. He bought a goalie,midfielder and striker during the summer to bolster the squad and now suddenly they are 10 times worse this season(with the caveat they have had a lot of injuries to contend with). Now how have the non footballing people been at fault for that?

The Moist Buddha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121121238#Comment_121121238

i stand by it !

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121319106#Comment_121319106

Did Ten Hag decide on who they were signing?

If you have non-football people in the ear of players talking about money it's going to affect them.

As for the Haaland thing, the ball shouldn't be getting there.

giveitholly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121319288#Comment_121319288

Bar Mason Mount I would say yes he did decide who he wanted to sign,and maybe he did want Mount. Onana,Martinez,Amrabat,Anthony and Hoijlund are his players.

Who would be in the ears of players talking to them about money and what exactly would they be saying that means the players won't perform on the field?

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121319334#Comment_121319334

Do you know this or are you guessing?

Money men would be in the ears of players advising them of things they can do like attending charity events and acting a certain way, all of which would enhance the image of the club, and telling them they'll get better contracts and more sponsors if they do these things.

The player them becomes more eager to make money than play football.

giveitholly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121319336#Comment_121319336

I reckon you are the only one guessing around here,so all the utd players are too busy attending charity events and making money to put in an effort on the field?

And this is the reason Utd are so poor this season? I presume the players didn't attend any charity events last season? Between this and the socks been too tight on the players legs I must say the excuses are becoming more far fetched by the day.

giveitholly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121319146#Comment_121319146

I hope you are wrong!

IncognitoMan

There are a lot of rival fans with some seriously surface level takes on Utd and then trying to pass them off as a "I told you so" when the club is struggling.

A vast majority of Utd fans know/knew the squad as a whole isn't good enough and that is being laid bare with the injuries.

Our 1st team with everyone fit is a team good enough for top 4. The players in and around after that are far off that level. The transfer dealing at the club over the last 10 years are catching up now. The money that was there before is no longer there.

Then when you add in players like Casemiro and Varane starting the season badly because the squad is /has been so poorly assembled there is nobody who can step in and operate to any kind of acceptable level. So the club is always in this situation where a handful of injuries or loss of form means the whole team is fucked.

Look at some of the players who have started games for Utd in the last couple of weeks and ask yourself would these players get a game at any other top10 club. Some of them would do well to get games in the prem full stop.

THIS IS A FAILING OF THE GLAZERS!! THE OWENERS!! AND THOSE THEY HAVE PUT IN PLACE!

I understand the Glazers owning Man Utd is a wet dream to many as they have managed to take English football's biggest club and turn them into also rans!! You can see that in the posts in here - they want another manager sacked so the club starts the cycle over again. A pointless cycle because it will get to this same point again in 18-24 months.

The Glazers from day 1 have been out of their depth at this level but they had David Gill and SAF covering their arses on and off the field until 2013. Once they had to hire or put in place their own structure they fucked it up and never even came close to correcting that. Not sure it even comes across their minds.

The squad is bloated with players who are under talented and under motivated for the level we are trying to get to. They are then over paid for this lack of talent and as a result cannot be moved on. Which tells you everything about them - nobody else values them at the level Utd have put them on money wise.

If you go down to your local car dealer and buy a Nissan Micra off them for 150k that car isn't going to turn into a supercar magically once you take it to the track. It will still be a 1.0 litre Micra no matter what fee you give for it.

We have overpaid because nobody at the top end of the club has a clue what they are at. Now we can't move them on and as such cannot free up wages or money to bring in what the team needs.

The manager is not totally faultless over these last few weeks - he has for sure made strange calls. But I can say now with total confidence there is no manager who will come in and single handedly clear this mess up. None. Pep, Klopp, Ancelotti, Zidane whoever else you want to throw in.

Hell you could clone a 50 year old SAF and he'd still fail with this setup.

If there isn't a correct structure in place above the manager they are destined to fail - there is no other top club in Europe who is run like Utd. It is the owners responsibility to put that structure in place or hire someone who can. When they don't then the failing on the pitch ultimately sit at their door.

The results of the Glazers are very much on the pitch.

ETH has for me anyway done very good work so far but the size of the task was always going to mean it would never be a straight forward rise to the top. There will be difficult periods and there will be shite results. But I'd rather sit and wait with ETH for another 2 seasons and then take stock than sack him and start the process all over again.

We picked ETH because we believed he was the right man to take the club in the right direction - we cannot do a U turn on that at the first sign of trouble. It is only 8 months since he won us our first trophy in 6 years.

bucketybuck

I fully agree that there is not a manager on the planet who is going to be successful at United. I genuinely laugh when I hear people say that they should get De Zerbi, or point at Postecoglou and say "look what he did at Spurs".

De Zerbi or Ange would fail at United. Pep or Klopp would fail at United, because they would not get the one thing that defines their times at Liverpool and City. Total support and backing from the board.

Its not about net spend, we all know United have wasted huge money. Its about a solid foundation that lets a manager control a group of players and then get the best out of them. United are the opposite of that, the players have free reign and the manager can do little about it because the foundations of the entire club are so dysfunctional.

I get that the manager is pretty much set up to fail at United, but the idea that he hasn't got a strong squad is pretty mental. The coaches at the top of the league have actually improved the players at their disposal, Ten Hag doesn't seem to be doing that. Are we saying McTominay, Lindelof, Dalot etc. wouldn't be squad players at Arsenal, United, Spurs and Newcastle? They absolutely would.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121319814#Comment_121319814

To improve the players you need to be in charge. It needs to be a situation that they follow your instructions and do what they are told, thats where the improvement comes from.

That hasn't happened for any manager since Fergie, why? Because the club is a mess structurally and the players don't actually have to do what they are told.

That is the current culture in the playing squad and until that is completely washed out it nothing will change.

theoneeyedman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121320245#Comment_121320245

Do you really believe this is how high functioning teams operate nowadays, in ANY industry? LOL, Leadership of i tell you what to do, you do what you are told, and then you are successful '??

Welcome to the 21st century man! That type of crap had limited success 50 years ago, worked up to a point when Fergie came to united, but was running out of legs by the time he left. It may be the reason why his players were almost without exception failures as managers, eg. Keano!

If this is really the mindset of United and their supporters, then no wonder they are in the mess they are in.

bucketybuck

You are being as naive as you think I am. Ironically.

Why do you assume strong leadership and control means authoritarian taskmaster? Because I don't.

Do you really for one second think that the Man City players don't do what Pep says? Why do you think that is?

And if you accept that Pep is in control, follow that thought to see why Ten Hag is not.

Augme

EtH has completed undermined his own leadership. To have total control of players you need their respect more than you need the full support of the Board, whatever that means. Pep and Klopp get the full respect from the players because of how the manage players. Look at how Pepe treated Erling Halaand at half time against Burnley. He's willing to give him a bollocking when he isn't palying well but then you see EtH talking about Rashford being undroppable despite the fact he's been awful all season. I dont know how any United player csnt look at how He's treated Bruno and Rushford this season compared to Maguire et al and not lose respect for EtH. He seems all over the place.

DAngelo Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121319814#Comment_121319814

Exactly the poor mouth is a bit hard to take Newcastle humiliated them on Wednesday night with a team with 6 full backs in it. Joel Glazer isn't responsible for a team set up with now absolutely no midfield or defensive structure that's down to the manager.

How is it that teams like City Liverpool Arsenal Spurs Newcastle Villa Brentford even Wolves can still set up and look well coached when they have injuries and Manchester United can't? That is squarely down to the manager.

doc_17

You do need a manager who the players believe is strong enough. To sell them. Like Pep did with Cancelo at the first whiff of trouble. Gone. All the City players know that Pep has that power. Klopp has it too. So does Arteta. Remember when Jose left Utd? He fell out with Pogba and eventually the board got rid of Jose, other factors were in play as well.

But as someone earlier pointed out, you need a sporting director. Then you might not have a load of duds, represented by the same agent as your manager, land at your club. Not necessarily saying that’s what happened Ten Hag, but it happened Wolves.

Lauras Law

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121320748#Comment_121320748

How can you say Liverpool look well coached when they have injuries? People have short memories because Liverpool were a basket case last year. They finished with 27% less points than they scored the season prior. Look at the season when they were Champions (2020-21). They had an injury crisis at CB and ended up finishing the season with 30% less points than they scored the season prior.

Currently United are on course to finish with 21% less points than the previous season. Obviously some leeway is needed with this figure since it's different teams they played in the first 10 games last season. But it's just an indicator. There's no denying ten Hag has made some poor decisions this season tactically. But his first choice back 4 have all been out with long term injuries. His DM in and out this season with fitness issues. And a new GK trying to settle into the team with all this going on in front of him. That doesn't excuse some of the attacking players for their lackluster efforts. But it's totally naive of you to say this doesnt happen at other clubs.

Infoseeker1975

Klopp and Pep would bring success to Utd and if not then they would be gone within a year. They rarely if ever buy players that they have worked with before. They set the tone from bottom up; everyone in the club is appreciated, everyone works for each other....if you don't then it is handled and players move on, especially with City they move players who would still get in their starting matchday squads on but rarely with too much internal hassle.

Their current manager has spent a lot of money; if he is not involved on who is being purchased then why stay there.

Buying aging Real Madrid stars for huge money & salaries is about hoping for a short term gain; the likes of Casimiro & Varane have played in a slower league with less games moving to a more physical league & more games; over a 4 year contract you will be lucky if you get one good year.

Utd need a 5yr plan; forgot about the big names; forgot about winning the league and CL and build a young motivated team that is a product of a manager that is capable of doing that.

Always hard to know what players earn but from looking at a few sites, they have about 7 players on £250K per week; it takes an unique manager to get the best out of those players when things are not going well.

They will probably beat Fulham & Copenhagen & all will be ok again:)

DAngelo Bailey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121320883#Comment_121320883

Liverpool were falling from a much higher position in both those years and while they had some bad performances in those 2 seasons they never looked in any way as poorly coached and disorganised as Manchester United do now.

What style of football does Ten Hag play? I can't see any when I look at them.

rob316

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121320598#Comment_121320598

Exactly. You manage the players that is your job. You can be a hardass but you ultimately have to put your arm around a player. Having public spats with players is doing nothing to endure yourself to the rest of the squad. I'm sure he's an excellent coach, but top managers are rare because it takes a special skill set you can't learn on your uefa training course. Pep, Klopp, Fergie, Ancelloti they all have charisma, this fella has none.

Fitz*

Because of the football structure/Glazers, ETH shouldn't be in charge of recruitment, but he is. And that side has failed for him.

If we ignore the recruitment side, what players can ETH say that he has genuinely improved as a player from coaching, development and/or positional changes? It's probably more of a question than Man Utd fans can answer better than anyone else.

I've seen some comments that AWB is an important player now so maybe he has improved. But he didn't exactly have a high starting point.

Shaw had a good spell last year but his career has been full of purple patches.

The same can be said of Rashford who had an above ordinary few months last year where he scored from December to February.

I wouldn't say any of the defenders, Bruno, Eriksen, Martial, McTominay, Sancho, etc have improved as overall players at all. Some have regressed.

I could be wrong there, and happy to discuss that, but if the players are not improving then that is on the manager. If that's the case, the recruitment has to be spot on, but it is not.

Widdensushi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121320883#Comment_121320883

I don't want to get drawn into the discussion other than to say that's a ridiculous way to measure coaching abilities, you must have looked through a lot of statistics to find something to argue your case with, there's so many variables from season to season, some years the bottom teams don't make any attempt at staying up, some years there are multiple teams there are multiple teams competing for the league, some years there are bad reffing decisions, how far clubs get in cups,so many variables that using % of the previous years points to measure how well a team is coached is just not a good way to do it.

Augme

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/67313204

I wonder if this is just a "just in case incestigstion" or if there is something concrete behind it. If there is something concrete behind it that would be quite an incredibly display of stupidity from Tonali.

~Rebel~

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121321543#Comment_121321543

In reality, it's most likely that he did gamble while at Newcastle... like, he's said that he has a serious gambling addiction, and habitually gambled for years while playing at Milan, where the repercussions are more serious than England with potential criminal prosecution. So under those circumstances, it seems most likely that he continued his habits after moving clubs. Tbh I'd kinda assumed that was baked into his case and punishment - didn't realise his case was only limited to his time in Italy. Should be an easy thing to check anyway, if they have the same access to his gambling records that the Italians did.

If it's found he did, would it be an additional penalty, or a concurrent penalty I wonder? I'd kinda expect the latter... say, a 6 month ban running alongside the 10 month ban rather than extending it.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121319541#Comment_121319541

I've been saying the same thing for a couple of years. This isn't something new I've suddenly concocted. I was saying this well before Ten Hag was hired.

If you have higher ups who are not football people getting involved with players it's not going to work out well.

I've been saying for years that there's something wrong at United. They've had very successful managers who have failed. They've had world class players who have not performed.

The likelihood that all these great players and managers are at fault just doesn't add up.

We do know that a couple of previous managers had no say on transfers.

There's something wrong somewhere and it's highly likely it's not the manager or players that are at the root of the problems. Too many top class managers and players haven't performed.

You've got Sancho, Mkhitaryan, Van De Beek, Maguire, Antony, Pogba, Depay, Schneiderian, Bailly, Di Maria, Lukaku, Matic who've all flunked at United and then Wan-Bissaka, Fred and Martial who haven't exactly worked out.

I forgot Alexis Sanchez and I'm sure there's a couple more I haven't thought of.

You've had Mourinho who I believe won league titles with every club he managed before United.

You've had Van Gaal too.

Those are two top class managers and both failed at United.

When you look through that list of players and those managers and Ten Hag are you going to tell me that it's all down to the managers? Or down to those players being bad investments because they didn't have the talent?

Two more names to add, Schweinsteiger and Ander Herrera.