General Premier League Thread 2023-24 Mod Note in op 27/6/23 And 21/05/24

TitianGerm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994278#Comment_121994278

Both teams best players. Grealish was brilliant in his last year at Villa and 90% of everything good went through him.

Will_I_Amnt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994325#Comment_121994325

Everton haven't paid a penny in transfer fees for Beto yet. He's effectively a loan player for the first year. Everton have the 3rd lowest net spend out of the last almost 6 years. They only have 18 first team players. What did you expect them to do, buy nobody, play the entire season with Calvert Lewin as their only striker and accept relegation? That'd seveeal cost multiples of £32m.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994380#Comment_121994380

Net spend is irrelevant when they had that high a debt. They needed to address the debt. They were spending money they clearly couldn't afford to.

citytillidie

Updated table after Everton losing 2 points, a screen shot was asked for too after the new formatting on the boards

~Rebel~

Emery's been incredible given the depths Villa were at for years prior. They went 12 years without a top half PL finish before he arrived. Magnificent job, head and shoulders my pick for manager of the year so far anyway.

Fitz*

The PL clubs being stubborn and self-serving is the reason why there is so much ambiguity around points deductions.

It should have been voted for x amounts of points deducted for x breach etc. But instead the clubs went at loggerheads and couldn't agree to the correct punishments. I would guess that is because clubs knew that they were close to a breach and wanted to save themselves that way, and screw and fairness for the league as a whole.

It happens lots as we've seen with the multi-club rulings, sponsorship rulings and the covid stuff just for a couple examples. 'The Sky 6' regularly get blamed for these types of things with their dictatorship but supporters should be looking closer to home when these rulings don't pass because their own clubs are throwing a spanner in the works. That Independent regulator is really needed.

K-9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994413#Comment_121994413

Liverpool joint top I see 😎

Some gap from 5th to 6th. Didn't realise it was that big. With English teams probably getting the 5th placed CL team, doesn't leave much to get excited about there.

Chelsea could still get Europa league through the FA Cup, if not European places all go to the league?

K-9

I think people forget everybody thought Luton were totally out of their depth after 7 or 8 games, talk of being the worst PL team ever. To do what he has done, with very little compared to the other teams, and being a joy to watch against the big teams has been a highlight for me. Could be like Blackpool the time they went up, great to watch but still get relegated.

TitianGerm

https://twitter.com/FabrizioRomano/status/1777407562616557591?t=YSWepe7m-j9va29qjCaNhA&s=19

I see Barca are starting their annual tapping up of players. Mad that they are allowed to still sign players when they haven't a pot to piss in.

Kiith

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994718#Comment_121994718

LEVER ACTIVATED!! 🤣

jacool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121993372#Comment_121993372

7th !!! behind Newcastle and Chelsea :)

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121995626#Comment_121995626

lol, mad prediction alright. I suppose the way the conte era finished up put a really bad spin on spurs outlook for the season ahead- which makes what Ange has done so far all the more remarkable.

IncognitoMan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121995679#Comment_121995679

Huge amount of question marks around the team. Losing their best ever (certainly PL era) player.
Kane went late enough as well so there was that extra stress. I definitely wouldn't have been predicting top4/5 for Spurs back in the summer.

Ange has done a great job all things considered but the hard work starts now as they need to reinforce now to stay in the CL spots next season. A big summer for them.

jacool

Betfair is probably the biggest market on the EPL, €10m staked on this market this season.

Here is how the top 3‘s prices have moved over the season.

Liverpool was once available at over 20/1 but that was before Christmas and for tiny money. The biggest bets struck on them at a decent price are over €1.1k @ 12/1. They were backed into 11/10 before losing to Arsenal.

Arsenal have twice been 13/1 and 600k has been wagered at that price.

60% of the market though has been taken by Man City, and the biggest they ever were, was at 5/2 recently and only 50 quid got that price. Their run-in sees them having the favourite’s mantle again, so it’ll be interesting to see how they get on tonight, and how the CL impacts on their title charge.

Looking at the last 10 games, Arsenal have not lost to their rivals AND have been banging in the goals as well.

One team has to face all 3 clubs in the run-in, Tottenham! You know what game they'll be up for!

Will_I_Amnt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121994406#Comment_121994406

Not accurate. When Russia invaded Ukraine and sanctions were imposed upon them, Everton immediately suspended (not replaced) huge sponsorship deals out of Russia - An amount of sponsorship money that more than covers the level of breach, was lost. Now, there are a number of bizarre issues around the PSR hearings and the commissions associated published rulings. But just 2 are;

Firstly, the position the PL took on this is that Everton should have planned for a War and it's no excuse (when the PL themselves lost £43m per year of Russian money that the didn't plan for).

Secondly, and even more bizarrely, in both Everton's original 10-point deduction ruling, and in their later appeal where it was reduced to 6, the commissions in those cases sided with the PL and would not accept this in any mitigation. The 3rd commission that gave a further 2 point deduction yesterday however, did accept mitigation!

Fitz*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121997964#Comment_121997964

So Everton would only have lost £104m and not £120m, thus creeping under the threshold bar while continuing to recklessly overspend and lose millions of pounds every month of the season?

I think you're forgetting what PSR stands for - Profitability & Sustainability Rules. That sort of carry on is not sustainable and trying to get out of breaching a threshold by the skin of your teeth certainly is not and/or tying yourself up in wouldashouldcoulda stuff is even worse.

They deserve the punishments they are getting. It should be more as a deterrent to others.

Will_I_Amnt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121999409#Comment_121999409

It seems you're saying the Profit and Sustainability rules that permit a £104m loss over each rolling 3-year period are absolute bullshit then?

I agree!

Especially in light that current Premier League club debt levels being approximately £3.6bn

Manchester United debt: £664m
Spurs debt: £677.4m
Brighton (who are constantly held up as the best run club in England) debt: £391m
Everton debt: £331m
Arsenal debt: £233m

But these for me are these most interesting one's. Aston Villa & Newcastle - both little to no debt; The former has made great strides towards breaking into the top 4 and may still do so this season, the latter already have done. The result; managers of both clubs speaking recently about having to sell their best players (Watkins and Isak) to adhere to PSR rules.

You're ignoring the fact that almost every club in the PL are "creeping under the threshold" and "recklessly overspending". Hence the very quiet transfer activity in the Jan 2024 transfer market - Because nearly everyone is right on the edge. Clubs frightened by the fact that 10 years after they were introduced, PSR rules are suddenly being implemented (coincidentally at the same time as the UK Government are brining a regulation bill through the house of commons).

TitianGerm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000635#Comment_122000635

Spurs debt is their new stadium. Uniteds is where the Glazers leveraged the club to pay for their original buyout isn't it?

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000635#Comment_122000635

united have the 3rd highest revenue in the world to service that debt, while spurs have the 9th highest revenue, and as titian points out above, the spurs debt is the result of building a world class multi use 62850 seat stadium.

It’s all relative.

pjohnson

Theres absolutely no valid excuse for Evertons carry on.

Will_I_Amnt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000710#Comment_122000710

A stadium that cost £1 Billion

Everton are building one that's costing £800m

Will_I_Amnt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000761#Comment_122000761

What carry on is that then?

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001157#Comment_122001157

ok.
Spurs actually have a stadium that cost 1bn and that has contributed massively to their overall debt and their 9th highest revenue in the world.

What stage is Everton’s stadium at that may cost 800m?

Will_I_Amnt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001230#Comment_122001230

Well as of 2 months ago, the stadium was structurally complete and they're about to start laying the pitch at the end of this month. I believe there's still £100m or so to be paid.

eh i dunno

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001230#Comment_122001230

Well it's due to open next year so I'd imagine they've spent 500/600m so far to get it to this stage

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001423#Comment_122001423

Fair play I didn’t actually know it was that far advanced.
What will the capacity be and is it far from Goodson park?

Edit:

Just looked it up:

Similar to the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, it is intended that there will be a 13,000-seater stand which is reportedly inspired by the "Yellow Wall" at the Westfalenstadion, the stadium of Borussia Dortmund.[37]

That’ll be a quality addition.

Will_I_Amnt

53,000 capacity with room to expand to 63,000 later

citytillidie

Game week 37 and postponed games fixtures

Saturday 11 May 2024
12:30 Fulham v Man City (TNT Sports)
AFC Bournemouth v Brentford
Everton v Sheff Utd
Newcastle v Brighton
Spurs v Burnley
West Ham v Luton
Wolves v Crystal Palace
17:30 Nott'm Forest v Chelsea (Sky Sports)

Sunday 12 May 2024
16:30 Man Utd v Arsenal (Sky Sports)

Monday 13 May 2024
20:00 Aston Villa v Liverpool (Sky Sports)

Tuesday 14 May 2024
20:00 Spurs v Man City (Sky Sports)*
*Previously postponed due to Man City's participation in the FA Cup semi-final

Wednesday 15 May 2024
19:45 Brighton v Chelsea*
20:00 Man Utd v Newcastle (Sky Sports)*
*Previously postponed due to Chelsea and Man Utd's participation in the FA Cup semi-final

Fitz*

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000635#Comment_122000635

You're a bit scattergun there with trying to reflect to random other clubs with their debt. First of all, most of those clubs are extremely sustainable and have the revenues to support their spending.

Spurs owe money on their stadium. Every single Everton fan seems to forget that Stadium developments costs are excluded from PSR accountings, so that clubs can develop their infrastructure independently. And at the same time they seem to use their stadium as cause for breaching PSR rulings.

Man Utd earn some of the biggest revenues in world sport, let alone Premier League football clubs, so trying to compare them to Everton in terms of sustainability is laughable. They can actually afford the wages they put out. Because their owners chose to pay dividends to themselves rather than service the debt is another story.

What Everton fans fail to realise is that they were doing mad things like giving James Rodriquez massive contracts (estimated at 200,000 a week) to lure him away from Real Madrid after they finished 12th in the table. When he left, after Everton finished 10th, the manager said that it partly because of PSR rulings why he was being released, as it was not sustainable.

Newcastle were a mid table club, finishing 13th, 13th, 12th, 11th. They weren't in Europe. They vastly expedited both their transfer spending (net spend 300m in 18 months) and wages spending, thus rushing their race to the top. It was via a new sugar daddy owner with a questionable human rights record to put it mildly. Given their owners social interests, they could pull the plug at any moment. Who would foot this bill as it certainly isn't sustainable.

Trying to plead the poor mouth for Newcastle is laughable. They spent well above their means and instead of sustainable growth over a period of time, tried to 'cheat' their way to the top via same-party ownership deals and by na injection of cash from outside influences. This wasn't a local businessman wanting to see his hometown club do well either. It was a sportwashing vehicle.

I'm not surprised that Villa might have to tighten their belts a bit this summer as they have had large spending on both wages and transfer fees since they got promoted a few years ago. Sold Grealish but re-invested that on a squad that gave them a base to work from. Some worked out some didn't. They have bought well the last few years, especially last summer.

The question more for Villa is do they want to continue spending at an unsustainable rate (paying CL level clubs transfer fees and wages while in the EL) or do they want to grow more organically (buying smartly from EL clubs and wages while in the EL) and ensure that base grows and grows still naturally you're better than 15 other squads. If they want to do 1 then they might have to sell Watkins and reinvest very smartly. If they want to do 2 then can keep Watkins.

And clubs that have qualified for the CL, and then selling their star player is not a new thing. Just look at that summer where Spurs sold Bale (or Kane), or Liverpool sold Suarez (or Coutinho), or similarly how West Ham sold Rice.

Or when Liverpool sold Share and re-invested the money for a better squad, on paper. It didn't work on that time but the next time that a star player was sold in Coutinho, they built the spine of a PL & CL winning team. Liverpool are probably the best example of a club not outspending their means over the last 15 years and still growing to be sustainable yet competitive at the top end. No sugar daddy there and no sportwashing. But 'had to sell their best players'. If anything the biggest gripe from Liverpool fans on the owners is that the club could have actually spent more on additional players when the team was left short in a couple of seasons, which wouldn't have affected their PSR totals at all. I think the club are actually something like 400 in the green at moment or something mad like that, in terms of PSR allowance.

Spurs had only been in the CL once when Bale was part of the team iirc, but when they sold him for massive money and reinvested in the squad overall they got lambasted for spending it badly. But over the next decade the club actually became a somewhat regular in the CL with 5 appearances including the final. Maybe this was down to Harry Kane being in the team but they sold him and spent the money on trying to make the team better again. They might just have a better squad now than last season and qualify for the CL again.

West Ham have a far better squad after selling Rice that will properly be realised when Moyes leaves. They're in the last 8 of the Europa League now with greater attacking options spread across the team. Whether they can hold onto all these players or not is another question but selling 1 per year and reinvesting smartly might prove to be ok for 2/3 years if they can get their purchasing as effective as it was last summer with the likes of Kudus, JWP etc.

Organic growth of those 3 clubs has helped them to have a bigger base to build from. Obviously there has been infrastructure development from the 3 clubs over the years that have also helped, on different levels, but those costs are excluded from PSR. The 3 clubs has to sell their best players but they grew over time instead.

K-9

Everton gambled on breaking into the top 6 with Anceloti and and lost. Simple as that.

Chelsea will get their comeuppance over the next couple of years as well.