General Premier League Thread 2023-24 Mod Note in op 27/6/23 And 21/05/24

McFly85 · 31-12-2023 11:53AM

Football manager contracts are generally set up to avoid flippant or knee jerk sackings, and sacking someone who’s underperforming just to get anyone else in to see if they do better is an incredibly expensive way to go about your business, especially at a club that gives its manager so much say in transfers.

United could just get someone else in and they could say they need new players - they could even say they need a new right winger, keeper and striker as ETHs signings have been so poor.

The footballing side will go through a lot of change with Ratcliffe coming in so there’s probably no point in getting someone else in now that they may want to replace pretty soon anyway. May as well keep him there until the summer anyway while that all takes shape.

Hammer Archer · 31-12-2023 12:10PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121546763#Comment_121546763

We don't have the historical success and following that the likes of Man U, Liverpool, Arsenal etc. have nor do we have the money from a billionaire backer like Man City/Chelsea (and Newcastle now). In any given Premier League season you'd probably expect a minimum of 8 or 9 teams to ahead of us going off history. And that's not including the likes of Brighton or Leicester or others who have had various levels of success recently.

So, yes, consistently getting 7th/8th or higher and getting regular European football would be considered success. That would mean we'd be consistently finishing higher than at least one of the above teams along with Spurs, Villa, Everton etc. Obviously, you always want to look to improve, but if you take the example of Everton under Moyes, they were consistently challenging for Champions League football under him (and were one abysmal refereeing decision away from the group stages) and spent only 2 of his 10+ full seasons outside the top 8. Since he's left, they've had a handful of decent seasons and have been a basket Case for the last number of seasons. I think we've got a very promising set up with the likes of Tim Steidten and Mark Noble looking after transfers and a manager that the players seem to buy into along with him getting us consistently into Europe (not to mention our first trophy in my lifetime). Would be incredibly risky to throw that away.

Word is that Moyes will be offered an extra 2 years.

rob316 · 31-12-2023 12:47PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121553415#Comment_121553415

But no manager is immune from these sort of results. It's a results business, if it continues you have to stop the rot and make a change. It's not like he has a load of credit in the bank, they didn't even play that well last season.

noodler · 31-12-2023 12:55PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121553470#Comment_121553470

Yeah I have to agree.

Mouse is doing a terrific job within the realistic expectations of a club with the resources you have outlined.

Not sure what else they would be expected to do, how do you break top 4 when you have City, Liverpool, Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea, Newcastle, Utd etc

McFly85 · 31-12-2023 01:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121553584#Comment_121553584

I think in this case the rot goes far deeper than the manager though, and simply changing who that is will result in a similar situation down the line. We’ve seen multiple managers go through the same routine, comes in, does well for a while, then it goes downhill, players stop playing, new manager comes in and goes through the same cycle.

Wholesale structural and procedural changes are required at United for real improvement, and considering there are new people coming in to manage the football side it makes no sense to get rid of him until they’ve at least reviewed what needs to change, otherwise they could end up changing again next year.

rob316 · 31-12-2023 01:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121553705#Comment_121553705

That's all fanciful stuff, the buck stops with the manager, it always has. If results don't change he's gone. He's achieved nothing to earn this faith in him.

IMO ineos will want a clean slate

rob316 · 31-12-2023 01:41PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121553470#Comment_121553470

He's a consistent safe pair of hands and in this league that's valuable. It's not long ago west ham were in regular relegation battles.

McFly85 · 31-12-2023 01:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121553758#Comment_121553758

United have been sacking managers when results go badly to get someone else in and by and large it always goes the same way.

The way they deal with player recruitment makes it incredibly difficult for managers to succeed there. Sancho is a prime example. Signed at huge expense to ridiculous wages by a previous manager. He doesn’t get on with ETH so the solution would usually be to move him on, but because of his contract that’s practically impossible. So now instead of selling a player and getting funds in they just have dead weight there that they’ll probably have to end up paying off to get rid.

In addition they’ve been very happy to reward short term success with big money, so there’s a core of players there who just can’t be moved on without a big financial hit - I’d probably include at least Antony from ETHs signings in that too.

Anyone who comes in is going to have to deal with a mishmash of different managers players that they simply can’t ask to get rid of, while wanting to bring in new players to play the way they want, which is a massive ask.

Without changing that model any manager coming in will have the same challenges, especially when the core of this team has shown over multiple managers that they’re happy to down tools and wait for a new person to come in.

theoneeyedman · 31-12-2023 02:23PM

Identical incident to the Aston Villa one in the Arsenal game just now, what was a penalty yesterday is not today.

To be clear, neither should be penalties in my view, but the inconsistencies and lack of accountability for the referees is laughable.

TitianGerm · 31-12-2023 02:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121553919#Comment_121553919

I was just thinking the same. There's been a few of those given this season, Newcastle got one and Brighton I think. Probably a few more.

Saka looked offside in the still I saw but no replay along the line shown yet. I actually thought he'd put it over the bar at first.

TitianGerm · 31-12-2023 02:28PM

Arsenal cut open. Raul with the goal.

noodler · 31-12-2023 02:47PM

Maybe some Arsenal fans feel the same about Liverpool, let's see, but I find myself always hoping arsenal keep winning so there is additional pressure on city.

Know what happens when you are near flawless for a season and City still pip you by a point (twice).

Will two teams applying pressure change the dynamic at all? Maybe fewer teams that are already beaten by city before the game starts.

El Gato De Negocios · 31-12-2023 02:50PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121553802#Comment_121553802

Stop talking sense, it has no place in here when it comes to United.

theoneeyedman · 31-12-2023 02:55PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121553609#Comment_121553609

Why would West Ham be inferior to Spurs or (post Roman) Chelsea? It's down to the owners I guess, but they have a bigger and newer stadium than Chelsea, and should offer a nice option to players coming to England (London based etc).

Apart from the financially doped clubs like Newcastle and City, they have all the raw material to compete with anyone else - they should be behind United, Liverpool and probably Arsenal in the shirt term based on those clubs historic sizes and support bases, but they should be next in line if/when the likes of United or Arsenal go through a bad patch.

noodler · 31-12-2023 02:57PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121554057#Comment_121554057

Down to the owners and money yes, nailed it in one.

doc_17 · 31-12-2023 03:14PM

If Radcliffe decides to keep Ten Hag, and I don’t think he should, he needs to remove Ten Hag from the process of deciding who they should sign.

theoneeyedman · 31-12-2023 03:22PM

Arsenal have a funny set up. They have a lot of players that offer nothing when they have the ball. 4 more or less central defenders, plus Rice. Rely on the lads up top to pull rabbits out of a hat, but no real structure or natural width to them.

There is a lot to be said for conventional full backs that provide a bit of natural width.

Dave0301 · 31-12-2023 03:24PM

Saka having a very poor run of form.

SlickRic · 31-12-2023 03:24PM

Spurs just a point behind Arsenal if it stays like this.

SlickRic · 31-12-2023 03:27PM

Gabriel spent that entire corner shoving Reid, then lost him as he scored.

Love seeing that sort of thing happen to defenders who try to defend like that.

TitianGerm · 31-12-2023 03:27PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121554182#Comment_121554182

Odengard was flying last year. He's dropped off this year and so have Arsenal. I was expecting Havertz to add more creativity to the midfield but he hasn't so far.