Green Party or Greenwashing Party?

MegamanBoo

How can the Green Party continue to support a government failing so badly on it's environmental targets?

https://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-climate-targets-6083779-Jun2023/

I think the general consensus among environmentalists is that calling oneself, or one's business, green or eco-friendly must be backed up with concrete evidence or action. Otherwise the label of Greenwashing is assigned for those only willing to maintain the status quo or profit while waving a green flag.

Surely that tag now fits this political party?

Threadbans

correct horse battery staple

MegamanBoo

Aren't they a bit like a human rights party supporting an apartheid government?

Brussels Sprout

There's already a long running thread for bashing the Green Party on the front page of this forum. could you not have added this there?

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120719303#Comment_120719303

No, not at all.

In other news politics is a difficult business.

MegamanBoo

That thread looks to be about environmental policy in general.

This thread is asking whether the current government party, calling itself the Green party, is deserving of the title considering how out of line in seems to be with the broader Green movement.

It's like asking if the austerity supporting Labour were a legitimate Labour party.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120719441#Comment_120719441

I don't think that sort of attitude really holds with environmentalists any more.

It looks like the consensus is major change is required immediately. Supporting a government clearly failing to make those changes, while waving the green flag, just doesn't cut it as far as I can see.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120719367#Comment_120719367

Im gonna be honest and opine the thread title leaves that open to be far more broad in scope, could be green policy from anywhere, not just the Irish registered Green Party.

Furze99

I was a member of the Green Party once and canvassed for candidates. They were concerned about the Irish environment then.

Now, they seem to be a Green Tech Party promoting Green Industry.

MegamanBoo

They support a government basically coming out and saying they're going to do as little as they can possibly get away with in terms of rewetting and biodiversity.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/government-criticises-scaremongering-over-peatland-restoration-1489698.html

How can you call yourself a Green party and support that?

Kermit.de.frog

They can leave government. Very few will shed any tears.

200mg

They are a "No" co2 production in Ireland party that's all. Stop producing in Ireland import everything that seems their only mantra. From food to power. Import Green tech made from coal energy. Get rid of cows let the wolves have the fields. No holiday for you but we can fly off with 12 odd people half way around the world for a meeting. I could go on. 🤪

Coolcormack1979

Irish Green Party and their fanatics are absolutely dangerous.and some of their followers who are in the media non stop are pissing off the general public no end.

take this evening on the last word and in his weekly farmer bashing rants John gibbons was able to justify the slashing/puncturing of people’s cars tyres by some eco crowd.they according to him are the modern day suffragettes.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120719585#Comment_120719585

So are you saying you support Green Party policies but you want them out of Government ?

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120719962#Comment_120719962

Their policies??? Which policy is it that says let's miss climate targets by a country mile?

Or are they a Green party that doesn't think keeping to 1.5 degrees warming is such a big deal?

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120720190#Comment_120720190

https://www.greenparty.ie/policies

Here fill your boots, this is their list of policies.

You said this is about policy.

If they are out of government what happens with the new government of civil war parties propped up by independents ?

Water John

OP, perfection is the enemy of excellent, excellent is the enemy of competent.... (I could go on). I take it you're going for perfection.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120720266#Comment_120720266

I'm well aware it's not actually one of their policies to miss climate targets by as much as we will.

I'm guessing that didn't go over your head and in fact you're just trying to show how eco-friendly their policies are.

But in that is the essence of greenwashing, all these lovely policies on paper but actions which in fact support the status quo.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120720290#Comment_120720290

In many cases taking a little by little approach might be legitimate and acceptable.

Amongst environmentalists it's recognised major transformative changes are required immediately.

I don't see how that can be ignored from a so-called Green party.

magicbastarder

'third largest government party has not turned ireland 180 degrees on its carbon goals' shocker.

FF, FG and SF have shockingly poor environmental policies. (i.e. none)

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120720266#Comment_120720266

Were they to leave government I doubt the net effect on whether we meet climate targets would be significant.

I don't believe they will do so anyway, though it might highlight the immediacy of the problem.

Too busy greenwashing aren't they?

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120720391#Comment_120720391

I'm just showing what their actual policies are.

Do you want them out of government for failing to get all their policies adopted ?

magicbastarder

i remember years ago listening to (i think) eamonn gilmore being interviewed on the radio; the radio presenter basically asked him was he going to apologise for not getting all the labour election manifesto items into government policy. his response was (i am summarising here) 'you want me to apologise? okay, i apologise for not having won the election outright, for that is what it takes to implement all the policies you have outlined in your manifesto'.

the same applies here. the GP is IIRC one seventh of the government by seat count. if ireland is failing to meet targets, is it the fault of one seventh of the government, or six sevenths of the government?

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120720425#Comment_120720425

I want them to do what a genuine environmental party would do.

As I've said already, taking a slowly, slowly approach can be a legitimate approach for some political causes.

Given what we know about climate change, supporting a government which is broadly ignoring it, does not fit with a genuine Green agenda.

It's not that I'm representing some hardcore faction. I would say the consensus amongst environmentalists is that it's no longer acceptable to support the status quo.

magicbastarder

so let's say they leave government. what will that do to achieve their aims?

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120720449#Comment_120720449

You're comparing apples to oranges.

For a Labour party there's an argument that bringing some protection to workers and the poor as a minority partner is a legitimate approach.

Given the immediacy of climate change, the argument is far weaker that a Green Party would support a government effectively ignoring climate change, for what, a few more bicycle lanes?

The worst "Green Party" on earth. A thorough disgrace.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120720478#Comment_120720478

I don't really know what their aims actually are!

I don't think them leaving government makes it any less likely we meet the climate targets.

It would make space for a genuine environmental approach to be brought to the table.

Whether they could take that mantle I'm not so sure. They certainly lack credibility right now.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120720514#Comment_120720514

How would you rank the green parties worldwide so?

WheelieKing

They'll do what they have to do to stay in power, just like any other political party. The most useless Green party on the planet.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120720905#Comment_120720905

Just above the USA.

Donkey years behind the rest of Europe.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120720526#Comment_120720526

It would make space for a genuine environmental approach to be brought to the table.

How? FF, FG and SF don't give a **** about the environment. Who do you expect will bring this approach to the table?

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120720913#Comment_120720913

A genuine Green party could be king maker in the next election. Climate change measures could be a red line for gov agreements. A long shot but better than doing nothing.

Failing that, I think more effective in opposition. Highlighting how little is being done.

The little environmental efforts that are being made will continue, to try maintain our international rep, making it look to some degree like we're really trying.

No gain by having them in gov now.

magicbastarder

i admire your optimism.

prunudo

I see this 'only the Greens care about the environment' comment a lot. I don't think thats true, an awful lot of people care about the environment, the problem with the The Greens is that they don't want compromise, the deeper their ideologies, the more entrenched they get. They believe increased taxes and imposing hardship on people is how to get their messages across. They are anti progress and won't be happy until we regress as a nation and live simple lifes growing lettuce and walking to the shops.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721007#Comment_120721007

You think they'd be more effective in opposition than in govt? I'm pretty sure thats the opposite of how it works

elperello

It's a strange discussion.

We have the usual opposing opinions about the Greens.

Some support their aims others are against.

Unusually this time both sides have reached the same conclusion, get rid of the Green Party.

magicbastarder

and the discussion gets weirder...

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721284#Comment_120721284

I guess it depends what the goal is?

A) Slowly, slowly incremental change - Hmmm, maybe they're helping achieve that in gov, but I think the kind of token gestures we see now would be made anyway under an FFG/SF/whoever else gov.

B) Rapidly and meaningfully reducing c02 output. The Greens are not helping to achieve this. In fact they're supporting a gov which clearly won't deliver it.

I think approach A is no longer the Green/Environmentalist goal. I would argue it's now pretty much the mainstream view.

Goal B is what environmentalists are crying out for. But our 'Green' party have abandoned it. Hence the Greenwashing Party tag.

WheelieKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721116#Comment_120721116

I think you are wrong. They aren't interested in imposing hardships on people, only working and middle class people. If you are rich and can afford that 80k electric car, that 120k house refurbishment to make it "sustainable", afford to buy your shopping at farmers markets or Donnybrook fair, work from home etc.... then they will get your vote.

Thelonious Monk

If were to meet our climate goals it would mean pissing off nearly everyone in the country, so that's not possible. No one wants to drive less and the IFA don't want to produce less beef/dairy etc.

Having them in Gov has meant that public transport projects have moved forward, albeit glacially, but I think we'd be in an even worse state without the Greens. I have never voted for FF or FG but for this Green voter I'm happy enough with their progress so far and will 100% vote for them in the next election.

Water John

The GP would be composed of various strands. Some proposals are good others are wacky. The whole approach to GHSs has to be holistic. Rewetting proposals up to now, has really done more harm than good to the green agenda.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721538#Comment_120721538

the reason many people have this kneejerk reaction to the greens, is that most parties essentially promise 'what you want, and more of it' (whether or not they deliver it) whereas the GP are essentially saying 'we need to modify how industry and agriculture and society works' - and people do not like being told they should change the way they live. a 'who are you to tell me i need to change the way i live my life' reaction.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721452#Comment_120721452

So we are on a 30 year plan to get to net zero and still there are vast swathes of society screaming blue murder. By all means, outline how to do this quicker, in what timeline and how you'd go about it

I'm all for reducing our emissions and as fast as possible, however I am also a realist and a pragmatist. Different elements of society can decarbonise at different rates

For example, tell me how you plan to get the transportation sector to net zero emissions within 5 or 10 years

Or the power generation sector, which has a 80% target for 2030 and a 100% target for 2050.

One I'm very interested in, the agri sector, I'd love to know how you see getting the job done for that sector in a shorter timeframe.

As I said, I'd love to see option B, but perfect can't be the enemy of good. It takes time to make societal changes and as it is many are saying we're moving too fast (we're not) but I'd love to hear how you think we can move faster while not further alienating larger sections of society

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721701#Comment_120721701

And how seriously do you think the Green message can be taken from a party that's supports a gov allowing such massive year-on-year c02 increases?

https://www.seai.ie/news-and-media/energy-in-ireland-2022/

It seems Germany now has a Climate Action party representing actual environmentalists.

https://www.ft.com/content/5c8287a6-2718-417b-9bda-4fb3f70e85fe

If the Greens don't get their act together and fast I reckon we'll soon see a similar movement here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721764#Comment_120721764

This thread is honestly the most hilarious thing I've read on boards in ages

"GP are a shower of bastages for making us change stuff while at the same time they are a shower of bastages for not making us change stuff faster"

lol

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721452#Comment_120721452

No matter which government is in place the minor partner takes the brunt of the blame. The Green Party are a small partner and can do very little to affect change, anything they do the population/government/opposition lose the plot and gets voted down. Case in point if the turf ban, yet all the negative press was pushed onto the Green Party yet the previous FF and FG government had agreed to ban Turf.

The power stations that got closed recently, everyone blames the Green party yet the process was started by the previous government.

The three main parties now in Ireland, FF/FG/SF are just as incompetent as each other and none of them have any idea what to do about CO2. Two of them have to make decision while the 3rd criticises, but ask them for an opinion and they can't come up with one.

I don't support any of the parties mentioned including the Green party but at least I can see what is happening.

Irish Green Party and their fanatics are absolutely dangerous.and some of their followers who are in the media non stop are pissing off the general public no end.

In regards to this comment, the most dangerous I see around are the followers of the other parties who are a huge majority and seem to have no issue using whatever tactics to get across their "views"

One of two Green fanatics are not the issues with you have thousands of fanatics of other parties. Like most subject it is easier to concentrate on the small minority instead of the bigger issues with a larger group.

MegamanBoo

Here's an article explaining what Greenwashing is.

https://earth.org/what-is-greenwashing/

Of note here are the tell-tale signs of greenwashing. See point 2:

• Declarations from a company that it is slightly greener than the rest, even if the rest are pretty terrible (eg. BP placing solar panels on its gas stations and saying that it is “working to be more sustainable”)

Now compare this with the pro 'Green' party comments here on how they've made some improvement on public transport, etc.

By this definition of greenwashing our 'Green' party are guilty of same. They are touting sustainability (Look! a little more public transport) while causing more waste (supporting FFG and our soaring co2 outputs).

ZookeeperDub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721900#Comment_120721900

The reality is the people of Ireland are blocking the majority of proposals to increase public transport. A bicycle lane will cause uproar for months, planning meetings, council meetings, numerous rejections, article etc before it can be built years later. So even if the Green party make proposals now it will be in the next government before they are implemented

The biggest issue in politics in Ireland is the main parties, FF/FG/SF have no intention of pushing forward a green agenda and will do just enough to make out they care while firing ahead with whatever else they have planned to do. Would "greenwashing" not be the correct name to call these parties? that would sound more apt to me.

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721990#Comment_120721990

If you acknowledge FFG are greenwashing, how do you proport the 'Greens' are not part of this same effort? They're part of the same government!

I think there's quite a few environmental efforts which would get public support, a proper retrofitting scheme, widespread work from home, rewetting, faster renewable roll outs, faster improvements to public transport, ev subsidies, to name a few.

I think even more radical proposals would get support from younger generations, circular economy, universal income, 4 day week.

We don't really know because there's no genuine political representation for these ideas.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120721007#Comment_120721007

What policies do you want brought in by the Green Party?

MegamanBoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120719869#Comment_120719869

Yeah if we're not careful someone might get hurt.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dishashetty/2021/07/30/climate-change-would-cause-83-million-excess-deaths-by-2100/