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ASAI warns about electric car 'zero emissions' claims

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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,976 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Why would you assume that different posters take the same time for each post? That's a fairly dangerous, flawed assumption to make, if you want to play the stats game.

    But really, it's an irrelevant distraction, presumably a deliberate attempt to distract from the fact that VW have been caught lying about emissions, yet again.

    I'd have hoped that after the last scandal, they'd have taken serious action to change the company culture. But apparently not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,652 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    Why would you assume that different posters take the same time for each post? That's a fairly dangerous, flawed assumption to make, if you want to play the stats game.

    Why would you even argue that point? Padraig would have to spend 8 times longer on average per post to match times on average. It was also a bit of a joke to counter what your response was to Padraig. I didn't think you'd be offended by being called out as a more active boardsie. Of course, you'll argue you weren't offended, so i'll leave that one there.

    On topic though...I don't like VW. I believe they have a toxic upper management structure where the execs think they are above the law. I would love to see them getting their balls crushed again for a scandal. However, the brake dust and tyre particulates complaint is such a horrendously weak argument, I suggest the ASAI and VW were laughing very hard over a Zoom meeting about the complaint made by the 2 complainants.

    While technically correct, if you want to be that pedantic, everything emits particulates to some degree. The act of cycling a bicycle for example emits particulates from many sources. The tire, the brake pads.....oh and the metal rim, or disc the pad touches also emits particulates. The trousers or shorts on the cyclist emits particulates by friction....though Lycra does decrease this at the cost of looking foolish. The helmet releases toxic plastic fibers and paint particulates from head friction, wind and rain. The Go-Pro suffers from this too, but also has to be charged and mostly by dirty coal burning power stations 😮.

    Now if you want to assume that different commuters emit more particulates just because they use an EV instead of a bicycle, that's a fairly dangerous, flawed assumption to make. The EV driver might only do a couple of kilometers per week, while the cyclist could be burning through tires and pads every couple of months. They might save on some break dust when they ignore traffic lights, because those rules are only for motorists after all.

    Stay Free



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,976 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    I’ve no idea why you keep bringing cycling into the discussion. No bike companies have been claiming zero emissions in their adverts. VW did make that claim, and ASAI found it to be untrue.

    It’s that simple really.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,723 ✭✭✭creedp


    I never realised that bicycle manufacturers avoided advertising the zero emissions nature of cycling due to their awareness that such a claim would constitute false advertising.

    I'm waiting for some pedantist to take a similar case against Nissan for the zero emissions logo emblazoned across all the Leafs spewing out particulates all over the place



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,652 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    It wasn't me who first mentioned bicycles in this thread, but you mentioned it yourself in your ASAI argument. The reason I later mentioned it is because you obviously cycle and have a deep concern about dust and particulate matter, so I used cycling as a prime example of particulate emissions.

    If we are to expect adverts to include the bleeding obvious all the time, the asterisks will take up more space than the advert!

    Example: "Drinking bottled water might make you need to urinate later". You know, because people sometimes pee after they drink......anything.

    Literally everyone (including the smug arsehòles who complained) knew the claim made by VW related to tailpipe emissions. Only a couple of nutrient deprived grass lovers would seek to find a pointless victory would point out what a 12 year old already knows. that simple really.

    The complainants probably clinked their bio degradable mugs of locally grown cucumber juice and had a party of two into the wee hours after wasting peoples time for nothing. If anything, manufacturers will just be smarter about breaking rules in the future.

    Stay Free



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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,976 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Just in case anyone fell for your little trick of trying to pretend that this was about VW failure to state the bleeding obvious, it wasn’t. VW didn’t have to state the bleeding obvious, or anything at all.

    They just had to not lie. But that was too much for them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,976 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    It’s not so much that bike advertisers avoid mentioning emissions. It’s more that they avoid advertising. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a bike advert on TV. Bike manufacturers don’t have to spin an unrealistic fantasy about wide open roads and happy smiley families to sell their products.

    I saw one of those Leafs (Leaves?) yesterday and had a similar thought. I don’t think the ASAI would consider that to be advertising.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,723 ✭✭✭creedp


    If you have the patience to read through this marketing bumph you'll see referencea to zero emissions driving. Not just VW that are 'lying' to the public

    https://www.nissan.ie/experience-nissan/electric-vehicle-leadership/electrify-the-world.html



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,652 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    You'd better send off another complaint then.

    The Government are trying to help people switch to zero emissions vehicles under the 2023 climate action plan....which as you've correctly stated do not exist. It must be a total scam....or maybe they realise that people understand they're not talking about brake dust. What do you think?

    Zero Emission Vehicles Ireland has been established as a dedicated Office charged with supporting consumers, the public sector and businesses to continue to make the switch to zero emission vehicles. The Office will lead on the delivery of the Ireland’s ambitious targets under the Climate Action Plan 2023 to have an expected 30% of our private car fleet switched to electric by 2030.

    https://www.gov.ie/en/campaigns/18b95-zero-emission-vehicles-ireland/

    Stay Free



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,970 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Mod Note: VW are still allowed to use the term Zero Emissions Vehicles with a disclaimer (as per ASAI), referring to the actions as VW lying or being caught is falsely representing the situation and will not be tolerated.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,652 ✭✭✭...Ghost...


    It’s worth noting that the ASAI didn’t uphold the complaint. VW volunteered to state the obvious.

    Stay Free



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,976 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Presumably, VW volunteered because they knew their position was untenable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,976 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    That would be fun- getting the Gov sanctioned by ASAI!



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,976 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    I’m fairly sure that would be within the scope of ASAI, if anyone fancies submitting a complaint?



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,970 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Clearly it wasn't untenable as VW engaged with ASAI and defended their position, the details of the case including VW's response are available on the ASAI website.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,730 ✭✭✭zg3409


    I did and dozens others did, so much that Toyota asked for the identities of everyone who complained as they thought it may be their competitors.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,529 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    isn't the ASAI is an attempt by the industry to self-regulate? i suspect they're not going to get too deep into issues like whether electric cars are zero emissions or not, it's more a 'don't take the piss, lads' approach, i'd have thought.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,882 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    just on the nissan, I heard the ad earlier today and in fairness it was only claiming that you get the driving experience (that all the ev fan boys rave about ad nauseum and find the idea of doing 100s of km in an almost silent modern petrol as a nightmare) but without having to plug it in.

    I actually thought it might be a good idea in the sense that the engine can work at its most efficiently and the battery deals with the peaks and troughs rather than revving the engine/ turbo/ wasting energy with brakes.

    From a real work review it is pretty good in city conditions (might work well as a taxi) but at 140kmh the thing is a pure disaster, i.e. 9.9L / 100km. My old 1.8L 5gear focus was more economical on the motorway than that yoke.

    But still, so long as they arent claiming its better for the environment or some such claim, theres nothing wrong with their ads if all they say is that it drives like an EV, which it does.




  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,970 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    That's pretty much what happened here, the complaint wasn't upheld they issued a statement.

    ACTION REQUIRED:

    Where ‘zero driving emissions’ were made, an appropriate disclaimer should be linked to the claim.

    The Committee reminded advertisers generally of the need for care when using absolute terms in marketing communications.

    Ultimately the definition of what is a zero emission vehicle comes from EU 2019/631, I'm not sure the a member states industry self regulatory organisation is the right one to take on supranational organisations.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,730 ✭✭✭zg3409


    Tyre emissions are based on a measurement where they claimed the amount if particles were higher than rubber in a tyre.


    EVs are typically not much heavier than a non EV and they usually have eco tyres which have less rolling resistance aka wear.

    Tyre rubber is normally heavy and falls to road and washes into drains. It's very different to a gas.

    In terms of the topic I see adverts saying "zero tailpipe emissions" which might be being used to cover/exempt everything from manufacturing, tyre wear, charging from gas power stations, end of life scrap etc.

    On fully charged the robot says would you like to be sealed in a container with a running EV or a running hybrid or ICE, or a clean diesel, you decide. !



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,652 ✭✭✭...Ghost...




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,426 ✭✭✭JohnC.


    UK ASA ban Toyota and Hyundai ads over misleading claims about charging times and availability of rapid charging points in UK and Ireland.





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