Firefighters striking over pay and conditions

standardg60

Seriously am i missing something here?

Apply to volunteer and then complain about it?

Don't like it? Don't do it.

Jim_Hodge

They are part-time firefighters who are paid an annual retainer to be available for callouts. Maybe inform yourself about the facts.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712097#Comment_120712097

What facts do i need to inform myself about? They signed up to be part-time firefighters in full knowledge of the terms and conditions.

They are not employees, they are volunteers.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058300810/volunteers-striking-over-pay-and-conditions

Just don't complain when there's no firefighters to put the blaze in your house out 👍

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058300810/firefighters-striking-over-pay-and-conditions

Would you prefer to be no fire service in the bulk of the country, then?

Beasty

Thread title amended to identify the workforce in question

Sierra Oscar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712176#Comment_120712176

They literally have a contract of employment with their respective local authorities. Legally they are employees, not volunteers.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058300810/volunteers-striking-over-pay-and-conditions

Yes you are missing the important facts of the story.

You have it all wrong.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2023/0613/1388806-retained-firefighters-strike/

Faugheen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058300810/firefighters-striking-over-pay-and-conditions

Hope your house never goes on fire with a disgraceful, entitled and ill-informed attitude like that towards key members of our emergency services.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712228#Comment_120712228

The union said that many firefighters are unable to take their leave entitlements due to staff shortages and have seen their incomes drastically reduced due to reductions in call outs over the last number of years.

So basically there aren't enough fires now to make the job worthwhile, so they should be paid more to do less.

corner of hells

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712350#Comment_120712350

Yeah what fireman doesn’t love a good fire , suicide or fatal car crash.

They deserve a lot more than that retainer ,appropriate leave and whatever they get for any call out.

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712307#Comment_120712307

The usual emotive reaction. Everyone in the emergency services is of course a gift from God and has no interest in the money they're being paid to do an actual job like everyone else who gets absolutely no credit whatsoever.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712350#Comment_120712350

In your first post you asked if you were missing something.

You've managed to make it very, very clear you are missing more than just one thing here.

This isn't a volunteer situation, it is a part time job with incredible responsibilities.

Are you willing to sign up?

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712380#Comment_120712380

No I'm not, I'm busy enough.

Are you naive enough to believe that everyone who has signed up is doing it solely from a philanthropic point of view?

The very fact they're striking means they are not.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712408#Comment_120712408

You appear to want them to all be philanthropic. Either that our your opening argument is a deliberate misstatement and you are trying to cause dissent in your posting.

Which is it?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712408#Comment_120712408

It doesn't matter what their motive is in signing up. Like every worker they should get decent pay and conditions.

kneemos

If they're on call for longer due to staff shortages more pay seems fair.

Presumably they're part of the public service pay agreement?

prunudo

The word volunteer is a get out of jail card for the government not to provide proper services to run and support the population of the country. If is wasn't for volunteers and good will, the country would be in a sorry state. It helps the governments cause to paint the retained fire service as volunteers.

The fact is they're not volunteers at all, it is a full time job that only pays part time wages. There are plenty of restrictions to both your work and personal life. You must live and work in close proximity to the fire station, you must be at the station within a short period of time if the pager goes off, you must attend a certain high precentage of calls outs. You have to deal with hugely traumatic experiences, seeing death and destruction in the course of your work.

To call them volunteers is an insult to everything they do. They should get paid a fair price and if its one of the reasons they can't attract new recruits, then they need to be paid more.

Gregor Samsa

Nobody except the OP claims that they’re volunteers. it’s a position that’s entirely made up in his head

The linked articles don’t call them volunteers, the government don’t call them volunteers, their employers (the County Councils) don’t call them volunteers, their professional union doesn’t call them volunteers, they don’t call themselves volunteers.

They’ve “retained firefighters”. They have an employment contract like any other employee, and they get paid a wage. The only difference to most employees is that their hours are not set.

The OP’s entire argument is in bad faith and based on an entirely incorrect premise.

kneemos

What kind of job allows you to run off at a moment's notice?

Mr. CooL ICE

In my home town, one of the firefighters was a school caretaker. Im sure there are loads of jobs where there'd be an understanding if rhe employee had to go to save lives.

I'm a software engineer on a permanent contract and therefore have core hours. But if i decide to go contracting in the future then depending on the gig, I'd be able to leave at a moment's notice. Not sure I'd have the balls to be a firefighter though.

whisky_galore

Unless you're self employed or have a very understanding local employer who is happy for you to drop everything and run I dont see this part time career as an option for very many people.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712875#Comment_120712875

I used to work with someone who had a very understanding employer

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712888#Comment_120712888

Good for them.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058300810/firefighters-striking-over-pay-and-conditions

Yes, you are missing something. If there is a problem with an understaffed service, as many public services are, then people leaving does not in any way improve things. Firefighters do important work annd they should properly staffed for safety reasons.

As for employers, these businesses would be quick to complain if there was not a prompt response if they had a fire.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712350#Comment_120712350

You are on the right track now.

If you read up a bit more about this matter you will find it's a bit more complicated than you think.

This is an essential service that any of us may need to call on.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712798#Comment_120712798

A County Council job.

In the past, there was a lot of cute hoorism and nepotism around these firefighter positions. They were a way to top up incomes with people employed by the Council and a blind eye turned when they left during work hours to go to a callout, allowing them to effectively get paid on the double.

Most private sector employers would not tolerate this.

The latest figures show that average pay for retained firefighter is 18,000-45,000 per annum (depending on number of callouts) and 7% of retained firefighters main job is with a county council. Sounds like a small number - yet the percentage of the overall workforce that works for county councils is way less than 7%

If the pay for retained firefighters is increased will we see the 7% figure increase? No matter how much retained firefighters are paid, many private sector employers will not tolerate them running off the job - so, should the firefighters be incentivised with higher pay (we are not going to have a full time fire service for the entire country) or should employers be someway incentivised to allow their staff join the retained fire service

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712875#Comment_120712875

You're right, it's not. Which is why having acceptable working conditions is important. It's a vital service that doesn't have an unlimited pool of potential applicants, because not only is the ability to meet the time commitment difficult, but it's very dangerous, physical and can involve anti-social hours.

I know two former retained firefighters. One also worked as a bouncer, the other for a governmental organisation that provided employment support that was itself a part-time position. You don't have to be available 24/7/365 at the drop of a hat. You're rostered in for a call-out schedule, so you can plan the rest of your life around that. You have to be available for a certain level of on-call cover, with a commitment to attend the station within a given number of minutes when paged, and to attend regular training.

Retained firefighters are not unique to Ireland - they're common throughout the world. It's usually only cities that would have full-time firefighters: in Dublin, 12 fire stations are staffed by full-time fire fighters, while 2 are retained. Cork City has 2 full-time and one retained station.

artanevilla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712408#Comment_120712408

What's philanthropic about running into a building to pull a baby out of a fire? What's philanthropic about cutting down a teenager who's hanged themselves? What's philanthropic about cutting someone's daughter out of a mangled wreckage of a car? What's philanthropic about getting spit on and attacked by people you are trying to help?

Did your wife run away with a fireman?

Cookie_Monster

Any job should allow you to do it, same as Coast Gaurd or Search and Rescue etc. You'd want to have a right **** of an employer for them not to see the benefits. it's not like the have to pay you for the hours you go.

I asked my employer about it (car dealer) and they were super supportive and wanted to put it on social media that they support employees who volunteer in such a manner and all.

The volunteer fire stations in the local are have signs out the front listing all the employers that support thier staff to respond.

kneemos

Rates of pay for retained firefighter s.

https://www.corkbeo.ie/news/local-news/cork-jobs-rates-pay-duties-24774860

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713109#Comment_120713109

It causes major disruption for employers. The upside of positive publicity will soon be forgotten if customer service suffers because staff are running off to callouts.

The indirect and societal benefits of having a fire service is not going to be a consideration for a private business. Let someone else pay for the service while you use it if necessary, that's the way of the world.

If you were a shareholder in a business, would you be happy to see your investment suffer because that business was allowing its staff to become retained firefighters while its "right cnut" competitors were not?

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120712408#Comment_120712408

Sorry but you're way off beam on this one. Have you heard any of these men interviewed? If your gaff goes on fire and you phone 999 or 112, you presumably would like to think that the fire engine would be on it's way to you within minutes rather than hours??? That means in practice that these retained firefighters have to be on standby in close proximity to their stations pretty much 24/7. That's hugely limiting.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058300810/firefighters-striking-over-pay-and-conditions

Lads, the OP is clearly acting the boll1x. There's no way they could be that thick or uninformed and yet start a thread on the matter.

One of my closest friends is a retained firefighter. It's a shyte job, with shyte conditions and shyte pay. We were at breakfast about 2 weeks ago and he was still pretty upset about a dead baby situation he attended a week earlier. I certainly couldn't cope with the things he has seen and attended to. He has certainly saved many lives. It's a horrible but necessary job.

He's tied to where he can live and work. Firefighters can't live or work more than 5 mins from the local station. That also limits the type of job he can do as many employers can't have an employee down tools and run off when the beeper goes off. Nor are they sure that the employee will turn up for work as they may be out all night at a call. He can't sit and have a beer in the evening either as he could be called upon at any time. I don't think people realise the sacrifice people have to make when they are retained fire fighters.

They shouldn't be on call 24/7 but getting rostered days off is difficult as there are chronic staff shortages. Even getting annual leave when they want it is difficult due to staffing. There's a reason they can't get new recruits. Because it's a shyte job. Look how mental people went about the 5km limit we had when there was a COVID lockdown. That's it nearly all year, every year for the retained firefighters. In the last round of recruitment in my town, only 3 people made the cut but none of them took up the role as they either lived too far away or their employer wasn't in a position to release them.

I'm not too sure if this element has been fixed but they used to pay a pension levy but don't get paid a pension.

The rates of pay are ok if you are out on calls all the time. But the fact is that they are only called out when needed and some weeks they mightn't receive a call so they only get their retainer and training fee for those weeks. Roughly €9k to €12k for being on call 24/7 and roughly another €3k for training with the clause that you must be living and working (or not working) within 5 mins of the station (usually 2 miles). And it's not only the firefighter who suffers, it's their family too. Daddy can't bring Jr to his match in the next town over because he's on call. My mate has missed weddings, first communions etc. When you get the call, you just gotta go.

https://www.corkbeo.ie/news/local-news/cork-jobs-rates-pay-duties-24774860

Unfortunately the only solution is to get more firefighters. And that's not easy. It won't happen as things stand, changes need to be made.

The Government need to make it worthwhile for people to take up the role so I think that would mean making the retained firefighters full-time (or at least allow people that option) County Council employees who have handy jobs in their town and pay them appropriately for a full-time role. Only with more firefighters in place can proper rosters with adequate time off be put in place. Nobody should be on call 24/7/365 and it's nearly at that stage now.

Calahonda52

re

Lads, the OP is clearly acting the boll1x. There's no way they could be that thick or uninformed and yet start a thread on the matter.

Darwin would indicate there is a way

cyclops999

Are you for real you have to come from a station that's doing over 500 calls a year to reach anywhere near 50k.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713589#Comment_120713589

It being a shyte job is a matter of opinion and depends on a person's circumstances. It's impossible for many people to consider the job due to the distance requirement and even if they meet that requirement, many/most private sector employers won't tolerate staff going to callouts. On the other hand, if someone works for their local council, has a "local" mindset and rarely strays from their own area, it's not very limiting.

As for attending communions etc., plenty of people are single, divorced, have grown up children etc. I've known lots of retained firefighters, they all loved it, got a buzz from callouts and didn't know what to do with themselves when they were forced to retire in their fifties. It gave them a lot of kudos in the community and other benefits included having the craic with their comrades after calls. They much preferred do something useful such as attending a serious fire or road collision than having the "freedom" to do some bullsh*t like attend a wedding.

The unions will try to have people believe that firefighters are suffering terribly and will use the sort of emotional statements (what if your house was on fire) as seen in this thread to their advantage. In other news, all farmers are poor and all nurses are angels.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714295#Comment_120714295

Those sort of people it does suit alright I'd reckon. But are they getting thin on the ground these days, particularly in more rural towns?

cyclops999

Look like it's going to week 3, government just won the 2 votes on motion & amendment

standardg60

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120715568#Comment_120715568

Perhaps Furze, or maybe it's more to do with a lot of retained firefighters assuming that a part-time job was a full-time one. The hourly rates, double for night time and weekend callouts are pretty lucrative, and wouldn't take long to accrue a decent wage. Now they've dried up, hardly a bad thing for all the Mrs Lovejoys posting here, they now want to be compensated for the loss of earnings.

The union rep said it themselves, because there are less house fires, road accidents, cats stuck up trees, whatever, our members can no longer earn what they thought they would when they signed up, you literally couldn't make this stuff up.

As for individual firefighters being on call 24/7 for months on end as purported by the unions, that doesn't even deserve a response it's so ridiculous.

I've no problem with the retainer being increased if the hourly rate for the callouts was reduced seeing as there's less of them, do you think that would be agreed to? I'd say there's two chances of that.

pjohnson

Jaysus quit while your behind.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120716062#Comment_120716062

So you've basically admitted now you didn't have any facts correct talking about volunteers.

XsApollo

Vital service and a very dangerous and tough job mentally, usually first on the scene and no doubt all of them have seen horrific things.

despicable that it isn’t a full time , paid job with all the benefits attached.

DBK1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713589#Comment_120713589

That’s it exactly.

I fail to believe that there’s anyone in Ireland with IQ levels low enough to have the opinion of the OP or to agree with that opinion. It has to be a piss-take.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120716062#Comment_120716062

Ask yourself, would you sign up for it?

I wouldn't - far too restrictive in terms of being on call and available.

AlanG

If it suits a person then it is a great extra job to have but the restrictions it places on people seem to be very limiting in this day and age. They will need to do somethign if they cant fill the numbers - perhaps increase the retainer and reduce the call out fee. Plenty of stories of 3 or 4 fire crews arriving at houses to help someone who is locked out or to look at a small fire that is no danger. That said they need to be there when really needed so it has to be worth while.

cyclops999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120717304#Comment_120717304

Fire service respond when requested they do not respond when they want.

twin_beacon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058300810/firefighters-striking-over-pay-and-conditions

they are not volunteers, a volunteer doesn't get paid.

One of the big problems is that people are actually taking your advice, there are not enough people liking it, so not enough are doing it. As a result, of low staff levels, firefighters are forced to be "on call" for longer hours, which is one of the reasons they are striking.

My brother is in law is a firefighter, he is paid a retainer every 3 months, and gets a fee per call out. The days he is not on call, he can gets social welfare.

Its not really an attractive career option for most people, no bank would consider you for a mortgage unless there was another person on the application.

JP Liz V1

A tough job, god bless them, respect and pay them, our useless government could take a pay cut to make up the money

arctictree

Im kind of with the OP on this one. I mean if you dont like the pay and conditions then just get another job better suited to your expectations.

BattleCorp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714295#Comment_120714295

Do you know any retained firefighters now? I mean active ones, not retired ones? Because, in rural Ireland anyway, there's a recruitment crisis and people like my mate who is a retained firefigher for the last 20 years is on call way more nowadays than he was when he started 20 years ago because there aren't enough staff to provide adequate cover.

I'd also call you out on saying that they'd rather attend a road collision than go to a wedding or other social event. Not very realistic to think that someone would rather be pushing someone's guts back into their stomach cavity while trying to save a life on a wet windy Winter's night or attending to an incident where a baby dies or a teen hangs themselves rather than be supping a few pints and having the craic at a wedding.

The number of retained firefighters needed in my town is 18. That's what the Council agrees there needs to be to have an adequate service. There are 11 of them in the service at the moment. So, 7 short. And they can't get suitable people to apply for those positions. That's a serious recruitment crisis and not just the unions talking shyte.