Neighbours, inappropriate kids' behaviour, gaslighting

macmurchu

Hi all

We live in a housing estate in a middle class area of a city. Not that that's important, but the story below is taking place where people are by the way upstanding people.

I(39 M) and my wife (38 F) have 2 kids 6G 3B. Last September, my wife texted me while I was at work and said come home asap after work we have something we need to talk about. My then 5yo girl told my wife that another boy (4yo) had touched her and others inappropriately in a garden shed at afterschool. My first thought was 'she's 5, this may not be totally accurate'. She hasn't changed a word of her story. She and 2 other girls and a boy were asked into the garden shed by the 4yo boy for "a willies and bums party". He put his finger inside the 3 girls, mine in the bum and the 2 others in their privates. The other boy present said no when the inviting boy said take your pants down. We quizzed our girl about it and asked who the other kids were. When we found out, we contacted their parents to see if they could confirm the story. The parents confirmed the story and it happened exactly as my girl described it.

So. The boy lives across the road from us. Until this point, there was like an open door thing where the kids would waltz in ans out between the two houses. We were friends with the boy's parents. He has an older brother 7/8yo and and younger sister 3yo. The 3yo girl and our 3yo boy were in the same preschool class and got on really well.

We were advised to follow official channels. So this all ame to light on a Tuesday. Wednesday we informed the afterschool. They reported it to Tusla Thursday. The boy's parents got a call Friday we think to say that a referral had been made to Tusla about their boy (we think we saw her walk out of the house phone to hear ear and hand over her mouth receiving the call).

I asked a friend who is a Garda about this, and whose girl is also in the same afterschool. He said follow the channels, the system will sort it out. He said not of criminal age... doctors and nurses... now if digital penetration comes into it that's different. I proceed to tell him the details. He says that's not right. That will come across our desk (he works in child protection with the Gardai). Advises me in no uncertain terms don't approach the boy's parents.

On the off chance, he asks his own girl did he ever put his hands on you? "I don't want to tell you daddy". Turns out the same boy did the same thing to his daughter (also 5yo) on a different date, at the same afterschool, in the same shed, during the same kind of willies and bums party.

Tusla said there's no safguarding concern for our child, they are happy she is safe in her home, this matter is now closed. We pushed for help for her from them, as she experienced bed wetting, general regression and nightmares. She climbed in beside me one night, what's wrong pet? I had a bad dream daddy, the teacher was trying to take my knickers down. She had lots of these dreams with a general theme of contamination, lack of boundaries, threats. They have since arranged for her to have play therapy, which started 2 weeks ago, late May the year afterwards.

The parents across the road by October had realised it was out child the complaint was about. Absolute hostility from them, swerving in front of our car when we pass in the estate, removed from local whatsapp groups, and neighbours who were once friendly with us now blank us. Guy who I would have gone for drinks with now barely speaks to me. Other neighbours totally blank us. The boy's parents have themselves out there as good community people, helping the communal estate area, cooking for the bbq, coaching local rugby and hockey teams (of underage kids if you can believe that). We have been ostracized. Our girl has been branded as something and some story is being spun in our community about us that makes people not talk to us. WHat that is I couldn't tell you, but it is surely some form of slander, because we have done nothing wrong.

For our daughter's protection on the advice of several counsellors, we have removed the boy as much as possible from our girl's life, as he will only remond her of what happened. We have moved her afterschool and school, she's in Junior Infants and had to move school in February of her first year of school. The stress this past 8 months has had in our house is unbelievable. My wife didn't sleep well for months and started to take antidepressants. I have untold levels of rage inside me. I've sought help from counsellors to deal with the anger and CARI are now working with my daughter in play therapy and us as parents too.

No direct conflict had happened between the 2 sets of parents until a few months ago. My wife was with her friend and their kids at an indoor play centre. The boy, his siblings and their mam was there. The mam gave my wife a filthy and my wife snapped. They had a verbal argument there and then. Two of the things the boy's mother said to my wife were 1) tusla said it didn't happen & the creche said it didn't happen, and 2) she (our girl) doesn't look that traumatised to me.

The second one in particular incensed me. Yeah, because she doesn't crawl in beside you at 4 in the morning crying about her bad dreams.

I saw the parents across the next day and couldn't help myself. **** you you c**t i said to the father, how dare you speak like that. He came over, his wife saying to him leave it leave it. Nothing physical happened. I said how dare you say it didn't happen.

He said yeah it didn't happen.

SO all 4 girls are lying are they?

Yes they are all lying. He would never do that.

4 little girls have exactly the same story and they're telling lies?

Yes

How dare you say she doesn't look traumatised to me

Yeah she's not

(fit to kill him at this point)

He tried to tell me that the bums party was the girls' idea and dump blame on them. (In hindsight I should have asked was it their idea for him to penetrate them as well?)

Where did he learn it? Tusla call it inappropriate sexualised behaviour, he either witnessed it in your house, watched it on a screen, or is a victim of abuse himself, because 4 year olds don't know what sex is. So which is it?

*Father gathers his child (older brother) who has made his way over to the commotion and punched me in the side saying "leave my family alone you big bully", and takes them to the car and off they all go.

I called Tusla the next week and said "here, these parents are saying you said to them that this didn't happen". The manager there immediately said "no, I don't think that's true. I'm not on the front line but let me check with my managers and i'll call you back". She called me the next day and she confirmed that no one in Tusla has told anyone related to this case that it never happened, "including that boy's parents", and gave me that in writing at a later meeting. I called the creche and arranged a meeting with their management. They also confirmed that they never told anyone that this didn't happen.

Tusla on the whole have been ****. They will not state that this did or did not happen (but did say they never said it didn't happen). They won't call it abuse or assault because the boy is not of criminal age. Instead they call it inappropriate sexualised behaviour among a group of peers, not assigning blame or agressor/victim roles. The Gardai can't do anything because it can't be a criminal matter because of his age. So we now live in a hostile environment where people are telling lies to hide bad sexualised behaviour by a child, and our name is apparently muck. There are some houses the boy's parents won't try to influence as they are good friends of ours. It seems like some people we have told the truth to don't want to take a side. But there are plenty of houses who have been influenced by the boy's parents and completely side with them by ignoring us.

I swear on my life and anyone else's that not a word of this is a lie. This has changed our lives and the system does sweet **** all about it. I can't believe there are people around who believe their story. Why would I be so adamant that it did happen, because what parent wants to believe that this happened to their child if it didn't? I would love to know what is being said about me, but no one has come and told me. They are clearly very good liars. Makes me wonder are they hiding something that is happening in their own house. The parents while they were friends with us, were in our house and us in theirs and they confided in us that their boys are too much. The mother said she can't handle them and sends them to childcare from opening to closing. The dad said if you shaved the head of the boy who did this, you'd find 666 tattooed on him. I saw that boy hop his lunchbox off his dad's head at collection time & draw blood. Other kids in that cohort have always said that boy is very quick to dish out punches and violence.

What do we do? Go round to people's houses and tell them the truth and explain how those parents have lied about us? Wouldn't that make us look petty? Shouldn't it be investigated where the boy learned this stuff? Are the kids in that house victims? DO we have to move out of the estate to get peace of mind? Do I let my instinct take over, beat the dad to a pulp and suffer legal consequences?

Thanks all. My head is wrecked

Str8outtaWuhan

Tusla are ****. Quite literally pointless. Option 1 leave the estate and the area as this won't end. Option 2 sue the crèche they have breached child safety by allowing children unsupervised in a shed. Option 3 anonymous letters in all doors warning neighbours

Moonbeam

This is both sad and worrying.

I get that they are afraid and embarrassed.

Did you report the father for assault?

What do the after school say? Is the boy still there?

Where on earth did he learn this behaviour?

Have the other parents involved been treated the same as you?

Moonbeam

Mod Note

Can we try keep this thread on topic as much as possible and try stick to the facts please.

macmurchu

Did you report the father for assault?

He didn't assault me, I genuinely wish he would because if he starts it I'll finish it. Sorry just re read it, it was the oldest boy who punched me.

What do the after school say? Is the boy still there?

They did nothing other than report what we reported what our daughter reported to Tusla. That apparently is the extent of what they were expected to do, officially speaking. They apparently held some internal review of services, which concluded a manager should be there at all times, and the shed should be closed.

The boy is still there. They were not allowed/expected to conduct an investigation to conclude what happened. That would have required forensic examination of our girl which we didn't want to put her through. One of the other affected girls gave a statement to the gardaí, which traumatized her all over again according to her mother.

Where on earth did he learn this behaviour?

God only knows. All 3 options of saw it/watched it on a device / is a victim of abuse are plausible to me. The father was a bully when he was at school, I was told by someone he bullied. The older brother launched a punch at me while the father and I had it out. Maybe violence and aggression is how things get sorted in their house

Have the other parents involved been treated the same as you?

None of the parents live as close to the boy's family as we do, so they're not as affected day to day everytime they leave the house as we are. They had the same experience with Tusla and the afterschool as we did. One of the sets of parents was really passive and left their girl in the same class as the boy. Which is mental to me. One set of parents did their very best to have him removed from the school (not the afterschool where it happened). They essentially said it didn't happen here so we can't do much. The principal apparently said if the boy's parents were any good they'd take him out of there themselves, because he's been marked now as trouble.

macmurchu

I agree they've been **** to deal with. The worst part of them for me was that we had to push for help, they didn't ask is our girl ok, does she need help?

Also, they didn't think it was important to establish what happened. They seemed happier to let it be just inappropriate behaviour and that's it.

I'm sure some questioning or investigating was done in that house, but of course I'm not privy to that.

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058300767/neighbours-inappropriate-kids-behaviour-gaslighting

Awful story to read OP. I don't know how to move on from something like this but can I ask

How are the parents of the other girls being treated?

You said one parent is a garda. What is his view?

Goodigal

That's an incredibly difficult read. Your poor daughter. But you are so very angry (and IMO justifiably so) and hurt and upset for her.

Try to speak to a counsellor to help you process the feelings you're having. And maybe to give you the tools to help support your daughter as best you can

Forget what other people think of you. You and your wife are doing your best. You're not getting the support from either the after school or Tusla so I don't know what you're expected to do next. But stay as far away from that family as possible. If that means moving, so be it. I wish you the best.

macmurchu

None of the parents live as close to the boy's family as we do, so they're not as affected day to day everytime they leave the house as we are. They had the same experience with Tusla and the afterschool as we did. One of the sets of parents was really passive and left their girl in the same class as the boy. Which is mental to me. One set of parents did their very best to have him removed from the school (not the afterschool where it happened). They essentially said it didn't happen here so we can't do much. The principal apparently said if the boy's parents were any good they'd take him out of there themselves, because he's been marked now as trouble.

The garda parent has to kind of tow a line I think. As I said, the gardaí can't do anything as he's not of criminal age. He's as outraged as I am though with his Dad hat on.

macmurchu

Yep I'm having counselling at present privately and through CARI. Theyve said thins like when you see those parents and you get angry that's giving them your power. That's all well and good but to live this life outcast unfairly and having the lies win, it's the injustice of it all that kills me. I'm so so angry because of it. I wish old school justice could happen here but I'd lose everything if I did that.

Mikros

That’s a terrible experience OP, and must be very difficult for you and your family. My heart goes out to you all.

The anger you naturally feel comes across very strongly in your posts, a lot driven by the injustice and unfairness of it all. Your daughter is a victim yet she and her family are the ones being punished. Tusla will have investigated the boys home life, and once they are satisfied he is not at risk at home would be more concerned with working with the family to help support them in challenging and changing the inappropriate behavior. You can be sure the school and aftercare will have the boy’s card marked and will have him under close watch, but again it will be from the point of view of trying to help him and prevent any other incidents. It is not a Garda matter as there has been no crime.

Which means for you there is going to be no public reckoning, no trial, no punishment, no vindication for your family. You have to see the young boy as a victim in his own way. That is in no way to take away from your own daughters experience, but as you rightly pointed out a 4 year old engaging in inappropriate sexualised behavior is not normal. Whether he has been abused himself, has been exposed to inappropriate material or has more general behavior/impulse control problems, there is no real culpability that can be attributed to him. He needs help as much as anyone.

As for his parents and what they have done, unfortunately some people do not want to confront the reality that their son might have done something terrible, and prefer to minimise the behavior and blame other people. Or they are more concerned with keeping up their public image. Whatever the reason they are unlikely to change or acknowledge they are in the wrong. A neighbor vs neighbor feud is always bad news, but with something like this it takes on another dimension. You need to remove yourself from it as much as possible.

Ultimately it leaves you where you are now. I’m not sure what outcome you could see that would undo what has happened or give you a sense of closure. It will likely be a long road to get back to a sense of normal, but the only thing you can do now is focus on looking after yourself and your family. Hold your head up high knowing you are a good father and in the right. Do not let this eat you up inside or there is a very real risk it will boil over into something that you yourself will regret. I sincerely hope it works out for you.

shesty

That is a hideous story.

But you cannot take justice into your own hands because unfortunately you will end up on the wrong side of the law if you do that, and your family will suffer further.

I'll be honest, if I were you I would feel the only option open to me would be to move house.You've done everything else that you can do.The school will be watching that child very closely.He needs help, his family need help, and for him,it will only get worse unless someone steps in to help them now.

But for you I'm not sure there is anything else you can do.Keep at counselling, try and keep your daughter's life normal but I suppose if that doesn't work, moving house is the last option.I'd be very surprised, by the way, if all your neighbours believe that family's story...

twowheelsonly

It's not much good to you but it seems to me that the family, and the father in particular, are in complete denial. Being in denial the chances are that they won't do anything about their childrens behaviour until it's too late.

Those neighbours that are blanking you will all see this in time as well and will swing back around when the problems become more and more obvious as their children grow. There's an old saying that "You can't outrun the truth" and this will come to be over the next couple of years. It's a horrible situation for you to be in and I don't envy you. Moving out seems like the obvious solution to regain peace of mind and to avoid the direct confrontations. On one hand it seems like the sensible thing to do but on the other why should you ?

Best of luck to yourself and your family in whatever you decide to do.

standardg60

Really the only option here is for you to move OP, for the sake of you, your wife and your family. There is clearly something seriously wrong when a 4 yr old has knowledge of a willies and bums party that includes penetration.

Take you and yours away from this, you're not going to heal if you continue to be faced with the reminder.

Minier81

I am so sorry to hear your daughter and family have suffered like this. It is horrific.

If you can afford to move house, then do. You need to focus on supporting your daughter, your family, and yourself. Nothing good will come of remaining living so close to these people. Do not take justice into your own hands, focus on your family. Also do continue with the counselling, has your wife had counselling too? Children will absolutely pick up on their parents' distress, so this will add to the impact of her trauma.

Duvet Day

The truth will come out eventually OP but that's not much good to you now. It's an awful situation to be in and must be all consuming for you and your wife.

I'd definitely move if at all possible, you won't have any peace of mind living there and I can see it getting more difficult as the children all get older, you won't be able to give any freedom to your daughter while living so close to the other family.

I really can't understand the reaction of the other neighbours, if it was just your child involved then maybe they could say she was lying but not when there were others involved, it's bizarre.

Keep away from the other father and try to concentrate on moving, I think it's your only option, it's completely unfair but living in that environment is not an option imo.

macmurchu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058300767/neighbours-inappropriate-kids-behaviour-gaslighting

I must clarify as well. When the mothers butted heads in the play area, and the boy's mother said Tusla & the creche said this didn't happen, that really struck me. This was on a Saturday. So 3 days later on Tuesday I called the manager in Tusla and said "the boy's mother has stated that Tusla said this didn't happen. Is that true?" She immediately said, "no. no, no, no one here has given out that message. I'm not on the front line so I'll check with my people and get back to you, but I don't think that would have been said". She calls me back a day later and said "no one here has said that this didn't happen to anyone involved in the case, including that boy's parents". They also gave me that confirmation in writing.

Then I called the creche where it happened and asked for a meeting with them, which my wife & I attended. I said the same thing to the managers there, that the parents said you told them this didn't happen, is that true? They gave nothing away, it was clear they had been briefed by their legal advisors not to do so (the managers told us this).

I said "ok, was my child the subject of any investigation here?"

No, it's not up to us to do that, we just forward the complaint to Tusla as per protocol

Then is it fair to say that you didn't come to a conclusion about what did or did not happen, if you didn't investigate?

Yes that's fair

Then is it fair to say that you can't have told anyone that this didn't happen, because you have no such conclusion?

Yes that's fair, we didn't say to anyone it never happened.

So I have proof from the bodies involved in this that the message the mother said about this didn't happen is a total lie. They are lying their faces off. What the hell are they hiding? They are absolute cowards for not doing the difficult but correct thing. If they told me my boy had done this to their girl, I'd have been straight to their door: I'm sorry, I'm so embarrassed, is she ok? What can I do to sort this whole thing out?

The exact opposite of what they did. I'm livid lads. The law is the only thing keeping the dad alive.

XsApollo

What can the system do for you, it’s a 4 year old child, I mean it is a horrible thing, the parents of the child are disgraceful and the crèche are a joke.

but what do you expect to be done? I’m not saying it’s nothing or you’re wrong, I would be the same as you, or even worse if I got that attitude back from the parents and crèche.

the only thing the crèche could do is remove the child from the crèche.

Nothing can be done to the parents.

Tusla get a lot of negative press , but they are held back by a lot of litigation.

they literally spend years fighting courts to get children out of really bad situations, and are abused probably everywhere they go.

Sleepy

As others have said, your only really option here is to move.

You're not going to get any legal justice here so the only thing you can do is what you're already doing: getting your family (and yourself) the support you need to put this behind you.

Kids talk very openly amongst themselves. No doubt every child in the neighbourhood knows what this kid has been getting up to by now. For now, the kids are too young to process that knowledge completely but the story will follow him as they get older. He's likely to have a miserable time of it in secondary school as the stories of him being a "pervert"/"molester" etc. circulate from the kids in your neighbourhood to his classmates.

It may require more patience than you feel you have at the moment but try to sate your desire for revenge with that knowledge and a parents understanding of what that's going to do to his parents: watching him being bullied for things they didn't handle properly in his younger years is going to be hell for them.

10-10-20

I can sympathise OP. I/we had to make a report for child endangerment once. It affected us emotionally and caused sleepless nights and I was constantly worried that either I or my family would encounter the subject's family out socially. I know that some families local to the accused avoided us afterwards, but we weren't close anyway so no loss. I swore I'd never share the details of the issue after that time and hoped that it got lost in history.

Only afterwards during a completely separate teenager-related incident a parent who was friendly with the family brought up the report and accused us of filing it unfairly and completely without justification. The person had clearly been provided with misinformation about what was reported and investigated. It was only at that point did I need to set the record straight and I mentioned the very specific reason for our concern. That seemed to quell the situation as this third-party could then only partially understand the predicament which we had been in at the time of the report. What discussions ensued after that point, I don't care for.

One of the biggest hurdles which I encountered was around not knowing whether the investigation was completed and was thorough. We were effectively told "thank you for your report, you won't hear from us again".

Would I/we do it again? Hmm, difficult to answer. Maybe but right or wrongly maybe only via an anonymous report into a school principal or playschool owner. It's just too much of an emotional load to take on otherwise. We didn't want to have to do it but we had evidence which said that we were right to do so.

pc7

OP that really is the stuff of nightmares for you all, I am so sorry to read this. The system seems so stacked against action and resolution. As others have said it would seem moving away is for the best for your family. Seeing the neighbours is going to be so triggering for you all, also as the kids get older and are out playing it will be hard for your daughter to not see the boy involved I really hope the counselling and play therapy can help you all into the future.

Purple Mountain

I'm really sorry to hear this OP.

It's a horrendous thing to happen and the subsequent handling of it.

What I will say about the other parents whose hostility you feel, I wonder despite their front with the other family, would they allow their kids to go to that house unsupervised.

Somehow, I'd think maybe not.

What I'm saying is that, there might be a 'united' front in public by some other parents for whatever reason but don't be surprised if privately they say different.

I know that doesn't help you much but just keep in mind that a lot of people would be thinking "there's no smoke without fire".

Purple Mountain

You might not know the answer to this question but I'm curious.

Do Tusla not probe further where a child learnt that behaviour?

At the end if the day, he's a young child who can't be blamed because he's too young but surely there has to be some kind of investigation if he's at risk too from being molested from someone who was in contact with him?

And surely his parents should be very worried as to where he learned that behaviour?

Well I certainly would be anyway and getting him to a therapist to try unravel that.

AlanG

It sounds really tough OP.

Regarding your opinion of Tusla, they may or not be doing thir job. Remember even if Tusla are investigating the family they wont be able to tell you. They also will not legally be able to say if it did or did not happen as they are not a court and it involves a child. Don't assume they and the Guards are not looking further into the family. As your friend in AGS may have child involved he would not be informed either.

If you want confirmation it concurred then the sugestion to take the creche to court for not supervising appropriately is a good one but be prepared to lose and have to pay some costs if your ase is not strong enough.

If I were you I would nicely confont one of the local people who now blanks you and ask them why. You have nothing to lose, if they wont tell you anything then dont get mad with them but just explain that you raised concerns wiht Tusla about an issue that happened with a local child an now you think the family involved may be spreading rumours in retaliation. Do not give details or the name of the child or you could end up in court.

AlanG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120719072#Comment_120719072

Tusla will not give you information into their investigation into a family and children. Do not expect any. They may or may not be investigating further. It's frustrating but the OP would have no way of knowing if investigations into the family are ongoing. the investigation into the event may be finished but a longer supervision / investigation may be happening.

macmurchu

Thanks everyone

I have known for some time we need to leave to realistically get this out to bed. Even if the truth was out among neighbours, I don't want my children growing up around such horrible people as this boy, his brother and parents. My daughter may ask me in 20 years did you do everything you could to protect me, and I will be able to say yes. Staying where we are because we are in the right doesn't justify keeping her near them. I'm sure us moving will make its own statement too.

Thanks all, be good to yourselves 👍

El Gato De Negocios

So sad that your daughter being involved in such an awful episode has resulted in you guys being the pariahs.

If I were in your shoes, what I'd be doing the night you move out of that area is a letter drop to every single house in the vicinity, fully explaining what happened and the reasons why you are moving. It won't change the fact you are having to leave your home but it may protect another innocent child from going through what your daughter and consequently you and your wife are going through.

Good luck to you all and hopefully it will fade from your little girls consciousness over time and she will be none the worse for it.