Electric or Diesel

Shocks.43

Hi folks, Just looking for a bit of advice / opinions on the following. I commute 330 km three days a week for work and I am now in the process of looking for a new car . I have a high mileage A4 (262k km 2017 reg) and am now going to move it on. I do not have a charging point at work and although I would like to move to an electric car I think the practicalities of my work commute I am still looking at a diesel. My budget is 50 max including trade in and I am not sure there is an electric car that will do that range in winter without a charge on my commute. My commute is 50 percent Motorway 50 percent country roads. I have no interest in buying an electric car doing 80km hour on the motorway with little heat on in the winter just to make the journey. I am looking for a comfortable commute.Thanks in advance .

User1998

Is it 330km each way? Or all together? You can get a 2020 Tesla Model 3 with manufacturers warranty for around €30,000 or a long range version for about €5,000 more. Both will easily do that commute but if your talking 330km each way and can’t charge at work and aren’t willing to charge on the way home then I don’t think any EV will be able to do that journey without stopping

the_amazing_raisin

EVs to consider that should manage that distance without charging for under €50k

Tesla Model 3 or Y LR

VW ID.3/4/5 with 77kWh battery

Hyundai Ioniq 5

Kia EV6

MG ZS Long range

Skoda Enyaq

Audi Q4 E-tron

I should point out that you'll want to be sure you have access to home charging and can get a day/night meter to get the full benefit of the savings

If you have reliable workplace charging then this is also an option for charging up

To give you some numbers, doing 330km averaging 19kWh/100km at 14c/kWh (Flogas night rate) will cost you €8.80

I would recommend going to the website below and putting in your commute with various different cars and weather conditions to see how they perform

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/

The site is one of the best out there for EV route planning and will optimise any charging stops to get you to your destination fastest

Shocks.43

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120710701#Comment_120710701

User1998 its 330 in total . Its not even about unwilling to charge .Its that I would have to go out of my way on my journey to locate a charger. Its a long enough commute without adding more time to it . Would you really get a 2020 Tesla for that price .

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120710964#Comment_120710964

2-3 year old EVs have come down a good bit in price and most will still have a lot of battery warranty remaining. Check out DoneDeal, a few bargains going there

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120710964#Comment_120710964

Definitely, prices are dropping like a stone on them since they slashed the prices of their new cars.

Head over to the EV section of Boards. Very helpful over there.

tom1ie

This is probably answers in the Tesla thread but what’s the difference between standard and standard range plus, in potential kms?

silver_sky

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120711261#Comment_120711261

Those model names are on older cars and I don't think we ever got the Standard Range here. I think it was Canada only.

We had the SR+ but current base model is just Model 3 (or Model Y). Some info here including real world range estimation. It stacks up to my experiences. Note that their cold weather range is proper cold -10C with heating.

https://ev-database.org/car/1555/Tesla-Model-3

mikeecho

Diesel

All day long, and if you're environmentally minded, you could opt to fill with HVO100, if it's available of your 330km commute.

snowcat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120711378#Comment_120711378

Diesel will cost 3 times as much. Diesel has it uses but unless you are doing more than 300kms a day forget about it. Its dirty noisy and expensive,

bazz26

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120711457#Comment_120711457

Not necessarily true.

I do about 10k km per year now as I'm working from home since Covid and drive a 3.0 litre diesel. Car is 6 years old, no loan or finance on it so all I'm spending these days is fuel which I spend just under €200 per month on. If I were to go out and replace it with a similar type EV I'd end up with loan repayments close to what my mortgage is costing me every month now.

Sometimes keeping what you already have is the cheapest option.

Shocks.43

Thanks for all the replies folks. I understand the need to get away from diesel but there is also the practicalities of it. I would need an electric car that could do that mileage comfortably in the winter without breaking the bank . Realistically is Electric nowadays with all the price hikes and the premium price of a car that has a decent range in it , really that much more economical than an ice car .When you take overall cost into consideration.

snowcat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120711544#Comment_120711544

Yes.

bish76

OP, have you looked into something like new Toyota Corolla Cross. It's not a premium brand but very well built and rock solid extended warrantly of up to 10 years provided you service with main dealer every year. Very economical and comfortable on long drives.

snowcat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120711583#Comment_120711583

Or look at an ioniq 24. 170km in winter 240km in summer. About 3 euro on night rate to charge. Done 100k km on mine and its paid for itself. Cost me 15k in 2019. Worth about 10k now. Free motoring. Cost zero in repairs. 80 euro for FMDSH. Battery still under 8 yr warranty. Fast as you can get around town. Great fun blowing smoking diesels out of it trying to get away from lights ahead of you.

Shocks.43

The Ioniq is def not enough range for my commute. I would like to get into something new or nearly new as I am moving from a 172 Reg . I will have a look at some electric cars over the next few weeks and see what the cost of change will be . I appreciate all the advice/ opinions. Keep them coming 🤔

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120711526#Comment_120711526

Fair enough, but the OP doesn't seem to want to keep what they have 😉

Have you checked the prices of second hand EVs lately? There's been some significant price drops in the last few months, you can pick up a 3 year old Tesla for around €32k, or an ID.3 for around €28k

That's not small money by any means, but it is a significant drop from where they were last year

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120711641#Comment_120711641

They need 330km in winter, Ioniq 38 would probably cover that distance?

Casati

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120710953#Comment_120710953

Out of those options I dont know if you will have a reliable commute in all weather- i.e. I'm presuming you have to go to work even if its 0 degrees and you have a massive headwind and heavy rain- and dont have another car at home you could take for those extreme days? Conditions like that really kill the economy, especially at motorway speeds. If you have to deviate your route home to charge, or be forced to drive at 100kmph on the motorway, you will grow to hate the car quickly.

For example the 19 kWh/100km given as an example is the avg consumption my friend sees with an Ioniq 5 - however in winter on motorway she only sees 30 kWh - dropping the theoretical range to just 256km - and that's driving from 100% charge to 0%.

Out of the list above it does seem like the Tesla Model 3 Long Range might just about work for you - in all weathers. You'd still have to charge to 100% (which isnt recommended) but should have a small bit of range left even in the worst weather. Batteries degrade over time and mileage- range will likely drop 5% after a year but you should still have a bit of wiggle room. A new Model 3 Long Range is about 50k but Tesla won't offer you much for the A4.

The major issue buying a Tesla for you is the rubbish warranty- its only 80,000km which I'm guessing you will hit in 18 months? Along with some battery degradation you might need to be selling up every two years but that might actually be an economical time to trade up anyway.

Buying another diesel is expensive too!. Realistically you might just about get into another new Audi A4 with 163bhp engine - but it's a model that is awaiting replacement and depreciation could be v strong with your mileage. If I was in your shoes and you didn't want to chance the Model 3, I'd probably wait till either the new Passat (in estate only) or the new Superb is launched towards the end of the year. Even buying these super economical diesels, they will still cost you about 3 times what a Tesla will cost charging at home on night rate.

Shocks.43

Again thanks for the replies. Bazz 26 I agree with what you are saying and if I had a small commute I would hold onto to the A4 . Was going to upgrade the A4 2 years ago but decided to keep it, I feel its definitely time to be moving it on now . Also Casati very good points made , but as you said the warranty is rubbish on the Tesla with the mileage I would be putting up . Just need to think what is the best option. I am just wary of the range on the electric and as stated I would get sick of it very quickly if I have to divert my commute to top up charging on a regular basis.

John_Rambo

That's some mileage on a relatively new car. Is it showing signs of it or is the Audi build quality living up to their name?

Shocks.43

John the car has never missed a beat . Besides regular servicing and tyres it has not cost anything extra ( prob will blow up now 😂) This is my 6th A4 and had a few 3 series in between , never had any issues with any of them really . A4 is a great car for the long commute .

fricatus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120710964#Comment_120710964

Without giving us your home address, what is the route that you're talking about? There may be times when a charge is unavoidable (bad weather, or charging fails overnight - rare but it happens), and some kind EV driver like myself might be able to give you some real-world info on how long you'd have to stop.

Red Silurian

At the moment the average electric car will do 17kWh/100km, some more, some less. Assuming you charge at home on the average day rate of 40c/unit that's €6.80/100km

To put that into a fuel equivalent, diesel is currently running at about €1.40/L so you would need a diesel car that can do 4.86L/100km to get parity on fuel price.

Of course night rate electricity, solar, electricity companies not screwing us and the price of a barrel of oil changing are factors that would change all of that

One thing that is cheaper in EVs and always will be, no matter what else changes, is servicing

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714387#Comment_120714387

Unless the OP works nights I'm not sure quoting the day rate of electricity is much use 😉

I worked out earlier that on the current Flogas night rate it'll cost about €2.70/100km

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714689#Comment_120714689

He might have a 24hr rate like most of the country

Shocks.43

My route is connemara to Limerick city . I am not sure what my night time electricity rate is. I would obviously have to look into all that . Red silurian I would say a new diesel car would come close to those figures you posted.( maybe I am wrong )

Hi OP,

Just a consideration after reading the thread, you said your budget is 50k max with trade in, have you been given any inclination as to what trade in value of your car is? Going off Donedeal with similar mileage to your own vehicle they are retailing at 16-18k, I'd imagine trade in value would be 12k/13k, if even.

Going off them figures it might be worth looking at getting the electric car and keeping the diesel for the work commute? Or drive the A4 for another year or 18 months and see if the electric range increases on potential vehicles your looking at.

I think you have to be realistic in your situation with the commute you have to do, electric would not be the way that I would go personally for that commute without a work charging point, I'd maybe look at a PHEV at a stretch, but I think your still at Diesel territory comfortably.

User1998

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120717404#Comment_120717404

Spending big bucks on an EV for it to sit in the garden all day would be nuts. And you still have to fuel and maintain the diesel car.

A Tesla Model 3 LR could easily do the commute on a single charge. No need for work charging, although it would be handy to have.

BK5

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120711583#Comment_120711583

I was going to suggest the Yaris Cross as an option also but didn't know if the OP would like one coming from an A4. The Toyota hybrids seem to be returning very good MPG and if you are doing a big commute the last thing you need in your head is the stress of constantly being on an Eco drive.

Shocks.43

Thanks for the replies folks . I don't really want to buy a new Toyota . I am realistic of the trade in price of the Audi and may get a bit more selling private , but i couldn't have the Audi and Tesla outside the door it would be a waste. I think a long range model 3 Tesla would be over budget unless i go back a few years and I would like to get to a demo model or a year old car if possible . I know the Audi will be worth much the same next year but I feel now is the time to move it on .

How much mileage are you doing a year? I think you'll have a lot of trouble selling it as is with the mileage on the clock.

I think the best option is to continue to drive the Audi while looking at saving for the LR Tesla based on your responses to the suggestions above.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120715899#Comment_120715899

IIRC that's mostly 100km/h roads? That'll actually help efficiency and range for EVs (I'm assuming you aren't speeding 😉)

I'm still pretty confident you can manage that in any modern longer range EV. I'm pretty sure my ID.4 could cover that distance with range to spare, and they can be had 2nd hand or new within your budget

I will say you'd definitely be jumping in at the deep end of EV motoring, a lot of folks start with the second car of the household and quickly get addicted to driving electric and then get a Tesla or something.

For you it will be a bit of a learning curve while doing the long range trips, and for most people it takes around 2-3 months to get over the range anxiety

Shocks.43

Yes Maybe its just the jump of going fully electric that is holding me back making a decision , but it could be just to bite the bullet as stated above and go for it . It would be great to do that journey without charging . Zylias while I have a chance of getting something for the Audi I think I should let it go . the _amazing _raisin thanks for the list you posted previously of cars that can do that mileage . I am off tomorrow and Sat and will try and get to look at most of that list and talk to some salesmen . Just another question .there still a long lead in times for EVs or has that eased a bit ?

R.O.R

The market is currently flooded with EV's! They've finally started to come through after massive delays, but most people who wanted one now have one. I could get a selection of different EV's on the road in the first week of July, and some even earlier than that. There may be price reductions / extra discounts announced soon on a good few EV's due to the levels of stock available.

Having tested a few EV's with mainly motorway useage, I wouldn't be going EV just yet if you need to do 330km a day in all weathers with no charging. Anything with a 75kwh + battery will probably do it most of the time, but you'd be spending the last 50km of the journey watching the range more than the road.

For a pure mile-muncher, the A4 35Tdi SE I had for a few months last year couldn't be beaten. The steering is a bit too numb for my liking, but it's not goading you on to drive it on, which is actually what you really want on a boring commute. I saw some ridiculous fuel economy figures on that A4 on my 34km (each way) commute, that's mainly motorway. Couple of days it was as low as 3.2l/100km but they were exceptional days - long term average over around 3,000km was 4.1l/100km.

I'd say if you walked in to an Audi dealer with €50,000 you'd be able to drive out in a new 35Tdi SE A4. Few available from stock - loads of S-Lines with the competition pack in or arriving soon, but they would be a few thousand over €50k.

Buddy Bubs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120719823#Comment_120719823

I think you'll be ok for range in many of the EVs mentioned, you can pull back the speed a bit to get desired range too. Your average speed shouldnt be that high once off motorways.

Also, a stop to charge wouldn't be a full top up, would be only a quick little charge if it is needed.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120719823#Comment_120719823

Lead times have eased a good bit and there's a lot more on the second hand market at the moment.

What can happen is you might order say a silver ID.4 that's due for delivery in 6 months, but the salesman might have an order cancellation in a different colour or spec that's available in a week or two.

Quite a few EV owners have literally picked up a new EV within a week this way. It depends on how attached you are to a particular colour or spec level

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120722573#Comment_120722573

2nd this

The best way to think of fast charging for petrol owners is to imagine a petrol station in the middle of the desert around 1000km from anywhere

If you're going that way you'll have to stop for fuel, but maybe the owner knows this and decides to charge €10 per litre

In that case you're literally going to get the bare minimum to get to your destination

It's a similar story for fast charging, it's more expensive than home charging and less convenient. So you aren't going to hang around any take on any more juice than you absolutely need

Shocks.43

Sorry folks on the road all day . Just seeing these posts now . Thanks R.O.R for that information regarding availability and maybe some reductions. Thought I would have got some test drives today but didn't happen , I have all day tomorrow in Galway City so I will get a few on my list ticked off and hopefully be closer to a decision.

...Ghost...

Hi OP.

The Model 3 Long Range is what you need. It costs 50k new and with the LFP batteries, it wants to be charged to 100%....none of this 80% nonsense. On the coldest of days, your range will be comfortably 400km+ and it would be years before you see any battery degradation due to the nice buffer built in.

I have 2022 RWD and although my commute is only 70km per day, its so easy and comfortable. The seats I could sit in all day and 90% of my commute is done using the included autopilot. On the motorway, I just sit in the left lane and let the car do the work.

There are plenty of other Tesla benefits, but a big one is access to the supercharger network if you ever need it. Take a test drive and if ordering one, use a referral link to get tesla credits you can use for free charging. I have one in my signature.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120726065#Comment_120726065

The long range doesn't have LFP battery, only the RWD Model 3 and Y.

Another thing to consider is the recharge time, a home charger will only give you around 7kw per hour you'd be looking at around 10hrs charging a night.

With that mileage the efficiency would make a difference in costs and recharge time over a year. Model 3 Long range or Hyundai Ioniq 6 would be your best bets.

Edit

I take it back looks like an Ioniq 6 77kwh would need a stop according to abetterrouteplanner, used Clifden-Limerick-Clifden. Model 3 LR gets you up.and back with 18% left so you'd be charging to 100% ish every night.

Tesla long range looks like the only option under 50k,not by much as the price is 49746.

...Ghost...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120731877#Comment_120731877

My error. I'd forgotten about the LFP only in RWD.

10 hours would only be needed if starting from empty, which wouldn't be the case most of the time.

Stevie2001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714387#Comment_120714387

You do know electric charging isn't 100% efficient?

That trip computer of 17kWh/100km isn't at all accurate, that's not what you got out from the wall charger

When you charge from the wall, you lose between 20-30%, when you add energy to an EV's battery pack, more is expended than what makes it into the pack, that 17kWh becomes closer to 25kWh., and when you do charge it to 100% overnight and the car is still plugged in, the system will switch to trickle charging, the battery will self-discharge so that it will be drained slightly, and then it will be recharged intermittently. 

The trip computer in your car, compared to your actual electricity bill will be way out, 30% would be my guess.

Don't believe me, check your bills

reboot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058300759/electric-or-diesel

Been driving EVsfor ten years, The worst vice is advice,but here goes. Leave it for 2 or even 3 years. Could be scrappage schemes,and the infrastructure chaos may be sorted by then. It wasn't sorted in the last ten years and has never been worse. Sorry electric heads.!

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120733841#Comment_120733841

Can't say I've ever noticed that in the last 2 years of EV driving, in fact just last night I plugged in and charged 23kWh into the car and 23kWh is what showed up on my charger, also once the car was full the charging stopped. Both the car and the charger actually showed the stop as well and no power "trickled" after the charge was stopped.

My bills wouldn't be a great way to check as they include other household appliances running also

You should check your setup if that's happening to you, your charger might be damaged

coolbeans

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120735164#Comment_120735164

To be fair there are always going to be losses when charging a battery. I'd estimate that my Zappi is typically ca. 90% efficient meaning that for every 50kwh I draw from grid I'm only getting 45kwh into the battery.

You'll be the same doubtless although it appears that you're not accounting for or realising this. It's to do with entropy in thermodynamics.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120733949#Comment_120733949

He's looking for a car that can do the roundtrip without charging so the only infrastructure he needs is a home charger, like most EV drivers.

I've never had to queue for a charger in 4 years so not sure what this chaos is you're talking about .

reboot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120735550#Comment_120735550

Problem with people like me is we are not trying to sell something.

Chaos over ten years would use up a lot of thread.

Shocks.43

Thanks again for all the advice/ opinions.

Apologies for the delay in posting an update.Visited a few garages over the weekend waiting on a trade in price for the Audi .

Skoda Enyaq was 47 k (400km range ) 55.5K for (500km range)

Ioniq 6 was 52 k ( 400 km range ) 57 k for 614 km range

Tesla Model 3 LR 50 k .Need to sell Audi private.

These cars are available now. Grant going down 1500 euros 1st July.

Some Salesmen suggested sticking with diesel with the mileage I was doing .

Skoda LR seems expensive ( 8.5 K for an extra 100 km range .

Electric cars seemed readily available ,

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120711812#Comment_120711812

Model 3 RWD would do that commute in winter. No problem.

€40,322 brand new and will run about 14-16 kWh/100km.

Charge to 100% on any EV is ok once you leave it sitting for days on end fully charged.

Charge over night and go the next morning. Not an issue.

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120711932#Comment_120711932

Your mileage means warranty is rubbish on nearly every car, petrol, diesel or ice I would imagine.