Private to Public sector: Salary

atahuapla

I’ve recently saw a vacancy in a public sector organisation that has caught my eye but I’ll admit, after 20yrs in the private sector I’m clueless about public sector pay.

Salary listed is between €62k - €98k and it states that:

“This role will be filled in line with public pay policy at point 1 at the relevant salary scale unless the successful candidate is appointed from an existing public sector role.”

So would point 1 here refer to the lower end of this band for an external candidate?

gipi

Yes.

mickdw

How is that even legal?

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120688585#Comment_120688585

What would be illegal about it?

atahuapla

Wow, so salaries are based on nothing more than public service tenure rather than experience and knowledge in a specialism?

Doesn’t strike me as a particularly effective way to hire the best people.

fits

some managers can get around it. I was hired at top of scale a few years ago as new entrant. They have to go through a process though.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120688792#Comment_120688792

So if you change roles with your current employer, you'd be happy for them to reset your salary ignoring your knowledge of their business and the seniority you build up... is that what your are saying?

Peregrinus

Plus, on top of the salary scales, there's a system of allowances that can be paid to people who have, e.g., particular qualifications or specialist training. To what extent this might be relevant in relation to this (or any other) position depends on the position and how advantageous it might be for the occupant to have extra qualifications or training. (As in, they won't pay you an additional allowance for being over-qualified for the position you hold.)

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120688792#Comment_120688792

Yes, that is how the Irish public sector works at this time

Agree that it's absolutely not how to hire the best people. But that's not the goal.

kaymin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120688815#Comment_120688815

I'm pretty sure his point is why should external candidates not get the same remuneration as internal candidates. It is discriminatory.

lbunnae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120688840#Comment_120688840

They only get higher up on the scale if they are currently earning higher up on the scale. Hence why they do it , otherwise they will not get internal applicants looking for a paycut.

kaymin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120688852#Comment_120688852

I appreciate that but it makes no sense to me (if I set aside the fact it's the PS) to overpay an internal candidate and having to backfill their previous role. And it's still discriminatory to external candidates - equal pay for the same work and all that.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120688840#Comment_120688840

There has never been a law preventing employers from discriminating between the people they employ and the people they don't. If there were, every single vacancy would have to be advertised and be the subject of a public competition; none could be filled by internal promotion or transfer. It would be a nonsense.

Discrimination is only unlawful if it's on one of the prohibited grounds - age, sex, race, religion, family status, etc.

lbunnae

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120688875#Comment_120688875

It's not overpaying, it could well cost the PS less. It has never ever ever been equal pay for the same experience

Flinty997

If you want to at the top end of a scale you'd be better aiming for jobs that will get you the bottom of the next scale.

atahuapla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120688815#Comment_120688815

No. That’s not what I’m saying. If they’ve the relevant experience and skillset, then the higher band would be justified. Should be the same for an external candidate; based on experience and skills rather than tenure.

Peregrinus

As fits says, there is a process for appointing people at above the entry grade on the scale if they have particular experience or are otherwise especially desirable candidates. It happens reasonably often, depending mainly on how tight the labour market is. But it requires the employing authority to make a case, and it's not something they can or ever do offer in the job ad, because at that point no case has been made.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689135#Comment_120689135

What your describing is the private sector.

What your asking is to have both the mobility of the private sector with the security of public sector.

The trade for that security is the (length) tenure of service that is required.

Daith

This tends to come up a lot from people with lots of private sector experience.

Unfortunately the answer will be, you are expected to start to the minimum scale or the hiring department will make a case for you. You won't know until you actually interview and an offer is made.

While I'd agree this can prevent them hiring certain candidates, it does mean they tend to retain people a lot.

kaymin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120688884#Comment_120688884

I didn't say it was unlawful, it's discriminatory nonetheless.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689302#Comment_120689302

Yes, but this is one of those "true but trivial" things. There's nothing wrong with discrimination unless it's done on grounds that we consider objectionable. If you think about it, the entire process of filling a job vacancy is inherently discriminatory.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689302#Comment_120689302

It is not discriminatory because working in the private sector is not one of the 'nine grounds'.

atahuapla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689228#Comment_120689228

Thanks for that. Public sector ruled out then.

The highest end of this bracket would have still meant a significant paycut, which I’d be OK with but the lower end would take me back to ‘08/‘09.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689887#Comment_120689887

Sounds like you're looking at roles far below your level for some reason.

It would be more logical to move into a role with salary at minimum that gas parity with your current salary.

Over qualified candidates are unlikely to stay in role thats much lower than what they are coming from.

kaymin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689443#Comment_120689443

You're referring to whether it is unlawful. Something can be discriminatory without being unlawful.

kaymin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689354#Comment_120689354

Personally I don't consider it trivial and do consider objectionable. It doesn't sit easy with me that equally qualified and suitable candidates are paid different rates of pay depending on whether they come from the public or private sector. I think that is quite different from the normal hiring processes and weeding through candidates. But then a lot about the public sector is objectionable

HerrKuehn

It makes perfect sense and explains the level of public services we have. Ireland has a love affair with mediocrity.

never_mind

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120688792#Comment_120688792

They can indeed and DO get around that. The only other thing to take on board is that you will have many more deductions to your nett pay because you'll be working in the PS. Pension and pension levy being two. Salaries also can change frequently enough based on what's going on in the economy in general. The higher end of the scale you're looking at was around 84k four years ago. It happens slowly, but it can go up and down as I mentioned before. Not as simple as private sector where it's more based on your performance and general health of the company.

Flinty997

There's two parts to this,

...equally qualified and suitable candidates are paid different rates of pay...

Why not?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690097#Comment_120690097

Nothing stopping anyone providing the same services privately and undercutting the public services. They they won't is what's mediocre.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690112#Comment_120690112

You have to ask why would someone earning more in the private sector want to leave it and join the public sector. If private is better why are they looking at the public jobs in the first place. Especially something at much lower salary. There is something driving them out of the private sector. There is some "value added" about the Public Sector thats making them look.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690178#Comment_120690178

It couldn't possibly be the 35 hour week, Flexi, annual leave, shorter working year...could it ? 😁

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690146#Comment_120690146

We have a parallel private health system, you generally get seen a lot quicker.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690270#Comment_120690270

That's not the "same" service or patients. Its different services with different resources and different patients.

That's a bit like complaining about the wait times economy airlines vs private jet.

Sleepy

It's a major deterrent for a lot of us. Having worked in consultancy roles within dozens of different public sector organisations I've long since realised that while I'd much prefer something in local government to the position I have now, I can't afford to take the necessary salary hit to do so.

Even at the top end of the scales of most roles I'd be interested in, I'd still be looking at a 20-30k salary drop, at the lower end it'd be like going back to a graduate role. You see it time and time again: the councils (and most other departments I've worked in) can't retain staff with the skillset for IT technical roles (reporting and data analytics work in my current role, ERP systems in a former one) so throw recent IT graduates into these roles where they inevitably fail due to lack of experience and are moved on to administrative roles elsewhere in the council or the very rare ones that manage to rise to the challenge and become competent move on to more lucrative roles in the private sector almost as soon as they've become so (generally within a year or two of being hired). The end result is always the same: consultancy firms are brought in to provide experienced consultants at high daily rates to bridge the gap: the very same staff they should, and could be hiring in the first place if they were prepared to pay closer to the market rate for such staff. It's extremely wasteful resourcing and, rather ironically, leads to the scenario where most of the experts in the domain of public service IT provision work in the private sector... there's an entire industry based around it.

Even knowing how poor many public sector roles are paid I must admit I was shocked recently to see the salary level for the Head of IT for the new NFMHS here in Portrane. As I'd have been qualified for the role and it's literally in my neighbourhood I was considering applying for it until I saw the entry salary level for the position was in the low to mid 50s: approximately half what you'd expect for a similar role in the private sector!

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690345#Comment_120690345

Not really like that at all, it is very unusual system we have. Nobody in their right mind would pay on the double for the same thing, but the public health service is so awful in Ireland that many average people are willing to do precisely that.

The state struggles with 2 things generally, #1 efficient and timely provision of a limited resource (health, housing etc), #2 getting it's employees to do something they were not doing yesterday (digitisation of health service, inability to roll out mass free testing in the first Covid year resulting in long closures of businesses).

https://www.irishtimes.com/health/2023/01/25/digitisation-of-health-service-is-being-impeded-by-bad-actors-former-department-head-says/

Germany managed to have free antigen testing in 2020/2021 when we were still having months long closures of restaurants. The PS went with the passive approach of just setting rules and shifting responsibility to others.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690403#Comment_120690403

I wonder how much of it is due to many of those making decisions being so insitutionalised that they have no idea how things are done elsewhere? Graduates are generally not able to work on very complex projects and are doomed to fail.

readoutloud

Seems to be an argument here that certain, highly-paid private sector workers should be entitled to have their salaries matched if they deign to grace the public service. But I'm not sure why they should jump in at top tier increments, given they made the decision to spend the first part of their career in the private sector, earning those "big bucks".

Complaining that you'd have to take a €20,000 to €30,000 hit is sort of tone deaf to those in the public sector who never earned that much.

Basically, the pay is the pay, everyone gets the same deal. Seems fair enough to me.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690417#Comment_120690417

It's exactly like that.

You've now gone of on about 10 different tangents that have nothing to do with the topic

If you think faraway hills are greener, why are you still here looking at them. Germany also has lots of issues with Covid, Healthcare and housing. Housing crash was caused by private banks, private developers, and the Govt outsourcing social housing to private sector has only made it worse not better.

atahuapla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120689939#Comment_120689939

Not the case at all. Currently a middle manager in an MNC. The public sector role seems to be much more "senior" than where I'm at. More people to manage, greater responsibility and by the looks of the job description, more autonomy.

The downside is that I'm bored and this public sector role is in an organisation that I admire, am genuinely interested in its success and am qualified for. I could hack a 30%ish pay cut but not a +60% one.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690403#Comment_120690403

Well thats the trade off isn't it.

This thread is basically wanting your cake and eat it. Wanting all the advantages and none of the disadvantages.

If you want the best of both worlds, do some contracting for the private sector. The pension is of no value to you, but the working conditions will be similar for more pay. Or find a private company that has a lot of similar perks. Tech companies are often not that much different. If you can find one that isn't always firefighting deadlines.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690546#Comment_120690546

This is the typical kind of attitude: you should take what you are given and be happy with it.

Why can't we demand more from state services? Why should we be happy with it?

The housing crash was caused by the government of the day pumping the bubble, not regulating the banks and increasing spending based on one off taxes from the housing market. The only entity that has any control over any that and an ability to change rules, like mortgage lending limits etc, is the government. They could have done that at the time, but it would have been unpopular to take the sweets away, so of course they didn't.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690478#Comment_120690478

"graduates are making decisions on complex projects" isn't really a big thing, private or public.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690576#Comment_120690576

It would be in everyone's interest to have a PS that makes it easier for highly skilled individuals from outside the PS join, even if that means that those who "have served their time" might not get the promotion they were "in line for" or whatever. That kind of thinking has resulted in the PS that we have today, one that struggles with anything related to new tech.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690630#Comment_120690630

I was thinking specifically around the area of software development, a manager who hasn't got a clue about it often thinks you just need to get a few people who know how to code. The fact is there is a big difference between cobbling something together and just about getting it working (which a junior might be able to do) and developing something that is flexible, easy to maintain and anticipates future change (which requires a lot of experience).

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690591#Comment_120690591

The Govt might have sat on its hands. But the private sector built the bubble and burst it.

Its the typical attitude. People wanting others to do what they aren't willing to do themselves. Backseat driving.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690651#Comment_120690651

Again, complex projects, and decisions, architecture, aren't done by "juniors" in public or private.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690676#Comment_120690676

Many people in Ireland rightly look at other countries that manage to have decent health services and wonder why we can't have the same? A big part of it is an inflexible state system, resistance to change, lifers who see the PS has their little fiefdom and are challenged by people outside criticising it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690403#Comment_120690403

Could you imagine the public outcry, if they suddenly started offering private sector / market rates for public service roles? 🤣

It's never going to happen. Simply put, the general public place no value on public servants or the work they do.

Look at the furore every time there is a mention of a public sector payrise.

On one hand, the public will constantly complain about services and expect private sector standards, but on the other are totally unwilling to actually pay people their worth, let alone market rate.

The last round of pay increases didn't even come halfway to meeting the cost of living increases. And keep an eye out for the bitching when the next round of talks begins.

My two cents worth - if you expect private sector pay, you'll have to stay in the private sector.

Sleepy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690178#Comment_120690178

As someone who'd like to make the move myself I'll have a shot at answering that:

1. Job Security - Private companies can go bust or have to lay off staff during hard times. During the recession in 2009, I was made redundant despite being in a position where I was making money for the company I worked for, at statutory minimum and with a young family to support at the time. I ended up commuting to London for just over 6 months during some of my kids most formative years before I could get a permanent position at home again (actually still in a more senior version of that position 12 years later). The experience can change you. It certainly left me more risk averse.
2. Family friendly hours or "work life balance". The firm I work for now are pretty family friendly being a relative small, practically family business, but previous roles I've had in the private sector have been the classic 50/60 hours a week with another 10 hours of travel or commuting time on top and still checking emails / having a "quick" conference call with a foreign office after hours. I still occasionally have weeks or months like that but they're the exception rather than the rule, in many MNCs or larger organisations, they're the norm.
3. You may laugh at this one but a draw to public service. Most of the truly satisfying projects I've been involved with have been with my public sector clients. Helping to make a particular department more efficient, freeing up public facing staff to focus on that side of their job rather than paperwork, report generation and "drudge work" feels more personally satisfying than helping a private sector client to better analyse the profitability of their various divisions etc. An example from a UK based council I worked with during Covid was leveraging data they had in their social housing system about a rental credit for those suffering from Covid and merging it with geo-spatial data about properties in their borough to provide mapping of Covid outbreaks. The feeling of doing some "good" during a pandemic certainly didn't reflect in my pay for that month but it was inarguably of benefit to my mental health at the time and something I'd like to experience more of. Of course it doesn't compare to vocation that front line staff in the health service must have but I think there's a lot to be said for knowing you're working in a role where you're at the very least contributing to the good of the greater public rather than simply selling them something.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120690688#Comment_120690688

Sleepy's direct experience above would seem to suggest otherwise. I am not familiar with how software development is done (or indeed more likely not done) in the state sector, but I have over 20 years experience of software development in the private sector.