Your views on Motor Tax (Systems)

saabsaab

Our motor tax system(s) is not consistant or logical. We have a system based on CO2 bands, pre 2008 based on engine size, another for cars over 30 years old and another for EVs.

I say that the road tax be added to the fuel. Talk of mileage done and vehicle weight based systems are too complex and probably easy to manipulate.

Chippy01

They did just that, back in the late 70's/early 80's.

Then they introduced a Registration Charge of about a fiver to 'keep a count' of all the cars, etc.

Said registration charge expanded and morphed into the system we have now.

And you guessed correctly, the original tax added to the fuel was never taken off.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120677847#Comment_120677847

Some mistakes there, it wasn't removed from all cars and was a tax cut. We also are in a totally different situation now and could do with a simpler system.

https://businessplus.ie/motoring/car-tax-axe/

Ubbquittious

Any big brother / GPS based system would be serious bad news

Psychedelic Hedgehog

...

BanjoSpanner

I'd very much favour a pay as you go system, but the current tax take is far too much of a cash cow for the government, so I don't think they'll be doing anything to change it.

What galls me about it is that as a private motorist, I pay my road tax so I can legally drive on public roads. However, with every passing year, less and less of those roads are available to me because of new bus lanes, cycle lanes and whatever other lanes you want to mention. In a situation where I can only use 50% of a road because the other 50% is bus or cycle lane, I do not get a 50% reduction in my road tax, do I?

Anyway, that aside, we do have the technology available to us these days that would enable a pay as you use system. And given the fact that more and more cyclists and motorised scooters are using those same roads - often on dedicated lanes - I don't think it would be unfair to suggest that they should have to pay something to use them as well. I know I am probably triggering some people by making that suggestion, but at the moment they are able to use a piece of public infrastructure that they did not pay for. Someone else paid for it, and you can't argue that this is fair.

RurtBeynolds

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678558#Comment_120678558

You don't pay road tax.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678558#Comment_120678558

Cyclists, scooter users, pedestrians etc. absolutely did pay for the roads.

BanjoSpanner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678606#Comment_120678606

No idea what you mean.

BanjoSpanner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678621#Comment_120678621

Like I said.......trigger 🤣

chubba1984

It's motor tax, not road tax.

arsebiscuits82

I don’t get the commercial v private rates. My lwb Land Cruiser seater is €333 for the year, if it was to be in private use it’s €2350. It’s the same bloody vehicle.

Also I noticed it’s cheaper to tax a truck/bus for the year than it is some pre 08 cars.

I’d rather a simple flat fee for everyone, say €250/300 for the year regardless of vehicle type.

Take total motor tax revenue per year divided by number of vehicles and there you go. Some will go up some will go down.

Also ditch the tax and insurance discs. With technology these should be defunct at this stage

Wildly Boaring

Fairly sure I've seen the same thread from the same OP.

Anyway silly plan with EVs.

bazz26

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678677#Comment_120678677

Yep, same thread started here nearly every year then disappears. I don't even think he owns a car.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678626#Comment_120678626

Unlike you, what I post is true.

Murph85

The post 08 system of motor tax is a joke. As good as free motor tax for new petrol and diesel cars. Total idiocy... should be minimum e500 for diesel and e350 for petrol IMO...

bennyx_o

You bring this up every so often:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058044429/abolish-car-tax

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058262716/motor-tax/

And, while I tend to agree that there are too many different systems in place (CO2, engine size etc) but I'm also resigned to the fact it won't change drastically. They can't (won't?) introduce a monthly direct debit like the UK and while having motor tax added to fuel makes some sense, how does it work for hauliers etc? No doubt the cost of everything else would go up as a result

hoodie6029

It’s all a moot point now really. With the ending of new petrol and diesel ICE’s from 2030 the Department of Transport aren’t going to bring in a whole new system for the remaining few years until then.

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120679070#Comment_120679070

Quite the opposite I'd say, they aren't going to be without the revenue, they'll start taxing by weight, now that would be the gift that keeps on giving as EVs are nice and heavy.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120679070#Comment_120679070

And they're certainly not going to bring in a pay-at-the-pump system with developments in home charging.

Pay by weight makes more sense. Actually it should be pay by weight-to-the-power-of-four to be proportional to the wear and tear arising.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678558#Comment_120678558

What galls me about it is that as a private motorist, I pay my road tax so I can legally drive on public roads.

1. You don't pay road tax, you pay motor tax which is an important point if you intend forcing the likes of cyclists to pay the same tax!

2. Paying the tax doesn't entitle you to drive on the roads. It is simply I'd you want to have your vehicle in a public place, including on roads.

Pedantic but nonetheless important points.

In a situation where I can only use 50% of a road because the other 50% is bus or cycle lane, I do not get a 50% reduction in my road tax, do I?

Completely daft argument and I'd say that you know it too!

And given the fact that more and more cyclists and motorised scooters are using those same roads - often on dedicated lanes - I don't think it would be unfair to suggest that they should have to pay something to use them as well. I know I am probably triggering some people by making that suggestion, but at the moment they are able to use a piece of public infrastructure that they did not pay for. Someone else paid for it, and you can't argue that this is fair.

Roads, cycle lanes etc were all paid for by the exchequer. You cannot try and suggest that they were all paid for via motor tax or any individual type of tax. Plus if you want to argue for a kind of pro-rata tax system then presumably cyclists would get a reduction because they don't wear down the infrastructure at the Same rate as much heavier cats, etc. Plus they'd get a further reduction because most cycle infrastructure is a box ticking exercise and they are usually too poor a design to make them worth using. But because this kind of taxation is a really stupid idea, it won't happen!

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678558#Comment_120678558

Did you get a 50% increase in your motor tax for every extra lane or km of new road?

If you think motorists are a 'cash cow', you've forgotten to look at the costs side of the equation - all the Garda and Court costs, all the road building and road maintenance costs, all the health costs of the effects of toxic pollution and obesity, and lots more.

blackbox

Even though I drive a heavy car and don't do a lot of mileage, I believe that a weight based system would be the fairest.

It is the closest relationship to wear and tear on the roads.

There is no way the manufacturer can fake the weight the way some did for emissions.

Geuze

Here is the proposal from the COTW:

https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https://assets.gov.ie/234316/b4db38b0-1daa-4f7a-a309-fcce4811828c.pdf#page=null

See chapter 13 in general, especially section 13.4.2 and 13.4.5.

Section 13.4.6 is about possible road usage charges.

Geuze

COTW recommendations:

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120679148#Comment_120679148

Just on the road building and maintenance point it's worth noting that public transport and commercial vehicles also use the roads.

zg3409

The current motor tax system has a good impact on people buying new cars. How many new owners said their car had "cheape tax". It encourages people to buy cars with lower co2 which feeds into the second hand market and increases efficiency. VRT has similar impact on choices for new cars.

It also means when first car owner tries to sell their big engine car is less desirable.

As it's a fixed annual fee it means those that drive little pay the same. This in theory might encourage those with low mileage to give up their car or second car. I know some city dwellers that use go car etc and don't own a car partly due to the annual cost of having a car that you drive little. Motor tax can play an important part of the mindset in particular those paying higher annual tax and not using the car. I sold my third household car that had an annual tax of 640 euro and bought a classic car with annual tax of 56 euro. I even declared my third car off the road for months during COVID to avoid paying motor tax. Thus the motor tax fee does drive behaviours and it's at least an annual bill you fork out unlike depreciation which might be once every 4 years. Fuel costs are often weekly, not one big hit.

The rates pre and after 08 are a bit silly and the average rates are very low now. Those paying 1,000 , 2,000 in the past definitely had an impact on behaviour and resale value.

I drive an EV as a main car now mostly to avoid fuel and motor and toll taxes, and I estimate I saved about 4000 euro a year versus my old petrol car.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120679070#Comment_120679070

2030 is a way off. What about a small flat rate for all vehicles and any shortfall being added to the fuel (fossil fuels). Simple and a weight based system would go against the policy of current EV vehicles.

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120679474#Comment_120679474

No, it’s not. It would take a working group a couple of years to research it and make recommendations. At which point you’re in 2026. Bring it through the Dail and budget. 2027. You have a tax system for three years with an ever declining number of cars on it after that.

Waste of time.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120679542#Comment_120679542

It could last longer than that. Flat rate could carry on past 2026. I'd say that there wouldn't be much research needed as this kind of idea has been around for a while and a budget could easily change it.

newmember2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120679271#Comment_120679271

Recommendation

13.7

The Commission recommends the introduction of congestion

charges in key urban areas, based on a number of key metrics

linked to environmental and individual impact. These charges

should be reviewed following the introduction of road usage

charges.

For the case of congestion charges, the commission use the current system operating in London as an example. London, a place that has a public transport infrastructure Ireland could only dream of. Such flawed thinking, and this is going to influence government decisions?

Chippy01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120677866#Comment_120677866

From what I remember from them days back then,(late 70's - early 80's -ish), ROAD TAX was abolished and a few pennies were added to the cost of fuel. But although road tax was basically gone, with the excuse of monitoring vehicle numbers, etc, a motor registration charge of only £5 was introduced.

At the next budget, that £5 increased to £10, and then upped to £20, and then the whole motor registration charge was scrapped and the old CC based MOTOR TAX was introduced.

But the extra few pennies that were put onto fuel initially, was never taken off.

I have searched online to confirm my memories of the time in question, but have turned up nothing. If you can source the actual facts of the time, I would like to see it.

FishOnABike

What does seem bizarre is the significant difference in motor tax for an average car, with the same CO2 emissions level, depending on the date first registered. e.g. CO2 = 154g/km, typical for a mid size 1.6L petrol engines car.

A post 2021 C2 emissions category (150g/km < CO2 ≤ 160g/km) is €280.

The same car, if first registered between 2008 and 2021 would be in C emission category (140g/km < CO2 ≤ 155g/km) would be €400.

The same car, if first registered before 2008, (1.5L < engine capacity ≤ 1.6L) would be €514.

It's an anomaly that should be addressed. Why should a car with the same emission level be one-and-a-half to two times as expensive to tax, depending solely on when it was first registered?

Source: https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https://assets.gov.ie/90909/c1c067a4-052b-406a-86dd-33a6830f90ad.pdf#page=null

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120680197#Comment_120680197

It was abolished only on cars below a certain hp limit. Initially there wasn't to be extra tax put onto petrol/fuel but there was in practice. This may have happened anyway. That was way back and our situation is different now with EVs etc.

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120680197#Comment_120680197

It was part of a FF election promise in the late 70’s by Charlie Haughey and Seamus Brennan. They won by a landslide. They abolished Road Tax and Household Rates.

They created a budget blackhole and and back then rates and road tax went directly to the local councils and corporations (hence why we have county based reg plates and in Limerick and Waterford’s cases specific ones for the city/corporation)

They brought it back in bit by bit after that but they also succeeded in taking huge financial power away from the councils who have to compete for funding centrally with every other council.

Irish Times had an article on FF’s election ploys over the years but it’s so long since I read it, it was actually on paper! Must have been during the 2007 election campaign.

saabsaab

From a Dail Debate at the time. It wasn't a total abolition..

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/1981-01-28/47/

Thinkingaboutit

Our rulers have a love of the death by a thousand cuts model of taxation, and the green codology (seeing our last briquette plant closing which now means they're to be imported and gas to be imported from eastern despotisms rather than extracted off our coasts because Eamon Ryan won't approve applications for exploration or drilling) can be used to justify even more stupid taxes. Anyhow 120 Euro a year probably doesn't cover the damage to roads from generally far heavier electric vehicles and the great amount of micro-plastic pollution coming off them as a result. Perhaps charge the tax via a levy on charging stations at service stations. It seems a simpler pay as go way.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120680340#Comment_120680340

I see this is as the one just element in the taxation of cars. Someone running an older car generally will not have the means or financial recklessness (ie bought on the tick) of someone with a two ton lithium ion battery road shattering behemoth and will have to put up with somewhat higher maintenance costs. This man or woman will oft times live in areas where public transport doesn't exist and safe cycling and walking routes are basically pie in the sky. A Green politician can choose his Tesla, get his bicycle carried in a state car. Most cannot do that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120680768#Comment_120680768

congratulations on starting your annual thread on this topic.

congratulations on posting the exact same posts on your annual thread.

congratulations on posting the exact same links on your annual thread.

congratulations on deciding to have limited engagement with other posters and instead focus on repeating your points for the last few years.

lock this mess up

elperello

I only just noticed this thread and I read through the posts.

Some interesting contributions on a subject that affects us all.

My own plea is for the pre 08 sector which has surely paid it's dues by now.

Time to give these cars a break, a lot are paying more in tax than the value of the car.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120677847#Comment_120677847

Any tax which goes into general taxation means that you will be taxed again, for the same thing, in a few years

rock22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120680768#Comment_120680768

You have your dates, and debate , all wrong. 81 was an attempt to reintroduce some motor tax. It was abolished for all cars in 77. Martin O'Donoghue was minister for economic development. It was all part of the FF manifesto in 1977

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120681401#Comment_120681401

There is only about 400,000 cars left on the old system. About 30% of these are under 1000cc and the vast majority under 1600cc IIRC. They’ll just be left to age out into the vintage rate or the breakers.

3DataModem

Before considering restructuring of any tax system, you have to ask the question "who are we expecting to pay more?"

Because you can't just make it cheaper for everybody.

magicbastarder

taxing by size and weight makes sense; but weight is obviously a much cleaner metric than size.

and another complication is differing fuel types and vehicle tranmissions; e.g. you could have two cars from the same manufacturer which are essentially the same size, but where the heavier car is more fuel efficient (be it hybrid or full electric); so it's very difficult to define an easy system which is logically consistent and fair.

LIGHTNING

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120681551#Comment_120681551

Sure you can, the government pushed out the new Co2 bands to encourage folks to lower their emissions. So loads of people did that and oh wait they bumped up the lowest bracket by a huge amount. Disregard 😐️

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120681086#Comment_120681086

Congratulations on reading this thread. If you cared to look at it properly you would see it isn't the same as before but askiing for peoples views on the topic. perhaps you don't like debate.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120681503#Comment_120681503

Not wrong at all. Yes it was 1977 but the debate shown was about the abolition even if it was later. Not much on the net about it really but the tax was abolished for cars equal to 16HP or less only and the lost income was not initially added to the fuel.

R.O.R

There is a massive % of the cost of fuel which is tax, so people who do more mileage each year, pay more tax (as part of the cost of fuel) than those who don't do big mileage.

Motor tax is an elective tax. You buy a car, you know what the annual tax rate is. You don't want to pay a high amount of tax, buy a car with a lower annual motor tax rate. While there have been increases in road tax over the past decade and a bit, no increases have been that substantial to warrant changing one car for another.

Those who want to add even more tax on to an already high amount of tax per litre, are either those who do small annual mileage with a car that costs quite a bit to tax, or people who want to buy something with a high tax rate, to do little mileage per year in.

creedp

Or have an EV and want to shove it to ICE drivers

In fairness some may be doing it for the right reasons, attempting to strong arm people into EVs for environmental, geopolitical, etc reasons

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120681528#Comment_120681528

It was mostly the prospective vintage type of car I was thinking of.

Take a 2 litre as an example, they have paid over 10k in motor tax already and will have paid nearly another 10k by the time they hit 30.

A lot of them will never see it, either scrapped or exported.

Give them a break not a trip to the breakers I say.

hoodie6029

The short answer to the future of motor tax is to ask SIMI or the Green Party. If the GP are in coalition, they’ll get their way. Later on, SIMI will get a scrappage scheme or something similar to compensate them for the Green’s actions.

If they aren’t, the government of the day will do whatever SIMI want.

Either way SIMI win and joe soap is screwed.