Your views on Motor Tax (Systems)

saabsaab

Our motor tax system(s) is not consistant or logical. We have a system based on CO2 bands, pre 2008 based on engine size, another for cars over 30 years old and another for EVs.

I say that the road tax be added to the fuel. Talk of mileage done and vehicle weight based systems are too complex and probably easy to manipulate.

Chippy01

They did just that, back in the late 70's/early 80's.

Then they introduced a Registration Charge of about a fiver to 'keep a count' of all the cars, etc.

Said registration charge expanded and morphed into the system we have now.

And you guessed correctly, the original tax added to the fuel was never taken off.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120677847#Comment_120677847

Some mistakes there, it wasn't removed from all cars and was a tax cut. We also are in a totally different situation now and could do with a simpler system.

https://businessplus.ie/motoring/car-tax-axe/

Ubbquittious

Any big brother / GPS based system would be serious bad news

Psychedelic Hedgehog

...

BanjoSpanner

I'd very much favour a pay as you go system, but the current tax take is far too much of a cash cow for the government, so I don't think they'll be doing anything to change it.

What galls me about it is that as a private motorist, I pay my road tax so I can legally drive on public roads. However, with every passing year, less and less of those roads are available to me because of new bus lanes, cycle lanes and whatever other lanes you want to mention. In a situation where I can only use 50% of a road because the other 50% is bus or cycle lane, I do not get a 50% reduction in my road tax, do I?

Anyway, that aside, we do have the technology available to us these days that would enable a pay as you use system. And given the fact that more and more cyclists and motorised scooters are using those same roads - often on dedicated lanes - I don't think it would be unfair to suggest that they should have to pay something to use them as well. I know I am probably triggering some people by making that suggestion, but at the moment they are able to use a piece of public infrastructure that they did not pay for. Someone else paid for it, and you can't argue that this is fair.

RurtBeynolds

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678558#Comment_120678558

You don't pay road tax.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678558#Comment_120678558

Cyclists, scooter users, pedestrians etc. absolutely did pay for the roads.

BanjoSpanner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678606#Comment_120678606

No idea what you mean.

BanjoSpanner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678621#Comment_120678621

Like I said.......trigger 🤣

chubba1984

It's motor tax, not road tax.

arsebiscuits82

I don’t get the commercial v private rates. My lwb Land Cruiser seater is €333 for the year, if it was to be in private use it’s €2350. It’s the same bloody vehicle.

Also I noticed it’s cheaper to tax a truck/bus for the year than it is some pre 08 cars.

I’d rather a simple flat fee for everyone, say €250/300 for the year regardless of vehicle type.

Take total motor tax revenue per year divided by number of vehicles and there you go. Some will go up some will go down.

Also ditch the tax and insurance discs. With technology these should be defunct at this stage

Wildly Boaring

Fairly sure I've seen the same thread from the same OP.

Anyway silly plan with EVs.

bazz26

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678677#Comment_120678677

Yep, same thread started here nearly every year then disappears. I don't even think he owns a car.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678626#Comment_120678626

Unlike you, what I post is true.

Murph85

The post 08 system of motor tax is a joke. As good as free motor tax for new petrol and diesel cars. Total idiocy... should be minimum e500 for diesel and e350 for petrol IMO...

bennyx_o

You bring this up every so often:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058044429/abolish-car-tax

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058262716/motor-tax/

And, while I tend to agree that there are too many different systems in place (CO2, engine size etc) but I'm also resigned to the fact it won't change drastically. They can't (won't?) introduce a monthly direct debit like the UK and while having motor tax added to fuel makes some sense, how does it work for hauliers etc? No doubt the cost of everything else would go up as a result

hoodie6029

It’s all a moot point now really. With the ending of new petrol and diesel ICE’s from 2030 the Department of Transport aren’t going to bring in a whole new system for the remaining few years until then.

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120679070#Comment_120679070

Quite the opposite I'd say, they aren't going to be without the revenue, they'll start taxing by weight, now that would be the gift that keeps on giving as EVs are nice and heavy.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120679070#Comment_120679070

And they're certainly not going to bring in a pay-at-the-pump system with developments in home charging.

Pay by weight makes more sense. Actually it should be pay by weight-to-the-power-of-four to be proportional to the wear and tear arising.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678558#Comment_120678558

What galls me about it is that as a private motorist, I pay my road tax so I can legally drive on public roads.

1. You don't pay road tax, you pay motor tax which is an important point if you intend forcing the likes of cyclists to pay the same tax!

2. Paying the tax doesn't entitle you to drive on the roads. It is simply I'd you want to have your vehicle in a public place, including on roads.

Pedantic but nonetheless important points.

In a situation where I can only use 50% of a road because the other 50% is bus or cycle lane, I do not get a 50% reduction in my road tax, do I?

Completely daft argument and I'd say that you know it too!

And given the fact that more and more cyclists and motorised scooters are using those same roads - often on dedicated lanes - I don't think it would be unfair to suggest that they should have to pay something to use them as well. I know I am probably triggering some people by making that suggestion, but at the moment they are able to use a piece of public infrastructure that they did not pay for. Someone else paid for it, and you can't argue that this is fair.

Roads, cycle lanes etc were all paid for by the exchequer. You cannot try and suggest that they were all paid for via motor tax or any individual type of tax. Plus if you want to argue for a kind of pro-rata tax system then presumably cyclists would get a reduction because they don't wear down the infrastructure at the Same rate as much heavier cats, etc. Plus they'd get a further reduction because most cycle infrastructure is a box ticking exercise and they are usually too poor a design to make them worth using. But because this kind of taxation is a really stupid idea, it won't happen!

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120678558#Comment_120678558

Did you get a 50% increase in your motor tax for every extra lane or km of new road?

If you think motorists are a 'cash cow', you've forgotten to look at the costs side of the equation - all the Garda and Court costs, all the road building and road maintenance costs, all the health costs of the effects of toxic pollution and obesity, and lots more.

blackbox

Even though I drive a heavy car and don't do a lot of mileage, I believe that a weight based system would be the fairest.

It is the closest relationship to wear and tear on the roads.

There is no way the manufacturer can fake the weight the way some did for emissions.

Geuze

Here is the proposal from the COTW:

https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https://assets.gov.ie/234316/b4db38b0-1daa-4f7a-a309-fcce4811828c.pdf#page=null

See chapter 13 in general, especially section 13.4.2 and 13.4.5.

Section 13.4.6 is about possible road usage charges.

Geuze

COTW recommendations:

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120679148#Comment_120679148

Just on the road building and maintenance point it's worth noting that public transport and commercial vehicles also use the roads.

zg3409

The current motor tax system has a good impact on people buying new cars. How many new owners said their car had "cheape tax". It encourages people to buy cars with lower co2 which feeds into the second hand market and increases efficiency. VRT has similar impact on choices for new cars.

It also means when first car owner tries to sell their big engine car is less desirable.

As it's a fixed annual fee it means those that drive little pay the same. This in theory might encourage those with low mileage to give up their car or second car. I know some city dwellers that use go car etc and don't own a car partly due to the annual cost of having a car that you drive little. Motor tax can play an important part of the mindset in particular those paying higher annual tax and not using the car. I sold my third household car that had an annual tax of 640 euro and bought a classic car with annual tax of 56 euro. I even declared my third car off the road for months during COVID to avoid paying motor tax. Thus the motor tax fee does drive behaviours and it's at least an annual bill you fork out unlike depreciation which might be once every 4 years. Fuel costs are often weekly, not one big hit.

The rates pre and after 08 are a bit silly and the average rates are very low now. Those paying 1,000 , 2,000 in the past definitely had an impact on behaviour and resale value.

I drive an EV as a main car now mostly to avoid fuel and motor and toll taxes, and I estimate I saved about 4000 euro a year versus my old petrol car.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120679070#Comment_120679070

2030 is a way off. What about a small flat rate for all vehicles and any shortfall being added to the fuel (fossil fuels). Simple and a weight based system would go against the policy of current EV vehicles.

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120679474#Comment_120679474

No, it’s not. It would take a working group a couple of years to research it and make recommendations. At which point you’re in 2026. Bring it through the Dail and budget. 2027. You have a tax system for three years with an ever declining number of cars on it after that.

Waste of time.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120679542#Comment_120679542

It could last longer than that. Flat rate could carry on past 2026. I'd say that there wouldn't be much research needed as this kind of idea has been around for a while and a budget could easily change it.

newmember2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120679271#Comment_120679271

Recommendation

13.7

The Commission recommends the introduction of congestion

charges in key urban areas, based on a number of key metrics

linked to environmental and individual impact. These charges

should be reviewed following the introduction of road usage

charges.

For the case of congestion charges, the commission use the current system operating in London as an example. London, a place that has a public transport infrastructure Ireland could only dream of. Such flawed thinking, and this is going to influence government decisions?