Ownership issue

Corkusr

Hi all. Last year a "friend" asked me if I could buy them a new phone and they would then pay me back (no written agreement, just verbal as a friend).

I bought the phone (proof of purchase in my name), gave it to them and a year later, still no money. I have asked via text about payment and was told things like: "next month", "100 per month", "you'll get your money" etc.

Question: Who actually owns the phone? am I entitled to get it back? and if so, how?

Thank you for any help you can offer.

GavPJ

How much was the phone?

feelings

small claims? €25 to apply.

Claw Hammer

In equity it is your phone. Take it back and keep it until paid for.

Corkusr

Phone was €1400

troyzer

Real cases, real people.

Trigger Happy

Why someone who cannot afford a phone would be getting a €1400 phone is a strange one. Even if they gave you back the phone today it would be worth a fraction of the €1400 you paid for it. Your best bet is to continue to hound them for the money owing.

And take the lesson learned!

TooTired123

You bought your friend a new phone as a gift. It was a present. In Ireland you can’t take your friend to the Small Claims Court, even though you have text messages from them admitting that they owe you money. They’re not going to give you any money for the phone. You can pay a solicitor to write them a pointless letter demanding the money back but you will only have lost more money. I’m sorry you’ll just have to accept that the €1400 is gone.

Corkusr

I was afraid someone would say that but I understand what you’re saying. Lesson learned.

Str8outtaWuhan

As a great movie character once said, consider that a cheap price to get rid of a no good bum from your life.

Corkusr

Agreed!

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120643335#Comment_120643335

I suppose if youre going to get someone else to buy you a phone , amd you've very little intention of repaying , then you'll prob get the good one ..

I presume theres no chance of physically getting your hands on the phone . ?

Corkusr

Live and learn. Unfortunately not an option to physically get it either.

Furze99

Always difficult when friends buy something from you and then decline to pay. Just sours things and leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Seen it here with a lad I knew well, it was a few hundred € owed, no rush to pay but after a few months I give a wee reminder and the same run around followed for a year. He was able to get himself a new quad bike and other stuff in this time but was avoiding any contact at this stage. Tosser, never spoke to him again but let other mutual friends know.

tayto lover

This lad was no friend in the first place if he could do that. Forget about him and move on but keep this lesson in mind.

The Continental Op

Just mention that you got an email for a recall for the phone because of batteries catching fire ;-)

Dr Turk Turkelton

If you have the imei since you own it could you get it blocked?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120644277#Comment_120644277

I disagree; this is not a gift or present. The friend asked the OP to pay for a phone for them, and said that they would pay the OP back.

OP, this is a debt. You don't own the phone, but you are entitled to your money back. You've got texts acknowledging the debt and promising repayment. As feelings said, you can pursue this through the small claims procedure of the District Court.

On edit: My bad. The small claims procedure cannot be used to pursue a simple debt. So if the OP wants to pursue this through the courts, it will be via the regular District Court procedure, not the small claims procedure. The fee is still €25 but the procedures are not so user-friendly and most people would find it challenging and time-consuming to utilise them without legal advice or representation. Plus you have to make a call about the likelihood, even if you get judgment, of actually being able to recover anything.

Corkusr

Thanks for the advice.

My original thought was that I actually own the phone as I bought it and the receipt has my name on it. Seems though as it would be treated as a gift and that’s a “one way” transaction.

And while it is a debt, knowing him now, he’d just continue to either ignore or say he doesn’t have the money. Again, lesson learned.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120652594#Comment_120652594

It's not a gift - you bought it for him with money that you lent him.

Suppose he had given you €1,400 and asked you to go to the shop and buy the phone for him (because, for whatever reason, he can't go to the shop himself). That would clearly be his phone, regardless of whose name was on the receipt — he would have paid for it, and you would have been buying it on his behalf.

Here you loaned him the money and spent it on a phone for him. Both you and he understood at the time that you were not acquiring the phone for yourself; you were acquiring it for him and it would be his phone. This doesn't change because you lent him the money to buy the phone. The fact that you lent him the money entitles you to the return of the money, but not to ownership of the phone. But the phone is not a gift from you to him, because you never owned it. For the same reason, it's not something you can claim from him now.

Corkusr

Thank you, makes sense.

The Continental Op

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120652725#Comment_120652725

While I totally agree with you how would that work out in a court? The only solid evidence is that the OP has a sales document with his name on it.

steinbock123

I wouldn’t let him away with it. Call the telecoms supplier, say you’re him and the phone’s been stolen and ask them to block the number. I know this is at worst Illegal and at best unethical (and sneaky), but guys like him do stuff like this all the time because they know they can get away with it. If I couldn’t get the money or at least the phone back, at the very least I’d be making it as awkward as possible for the fecker.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655034#Comment_120655034

You can only do this by going to a garda station and filling in a form.

No offence but it wasnt a great idea anyhow!

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120654819#Comment_120654819

He has texts from the borrower acknowledging the debt and promising repayment.

Corkusr

Yes. Promise of a monthly payment (that never happened) and excuses for not being able to.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120656464#Comment_120656464

Yes, I know, but it evidences the debt.

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120644365#Comment_120644365

You could report it stolen to the phone company, they might black list it for you.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120656699#Comment_120656699

They will not do anything until it is reported to the gardai as either lost or stolen.

brokenbad

Little chance of getting the money now after all this time - put it down as a harsh lesson learned and cut all contact with this so called "friend"

Claw Hammer

Why can you not get the phone back? That is the only way to deal with this.

GavPJ

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120656726#Comment_120656726

I'd be of the same opinion but the fact the phone was €1400 would bug the cr ap

out of me.

Anyone that pays that amount of money for a phone needs their head examined.

brokenbad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120644598#Comment_120644598

Why not? Do you know where he lives?

Why not call around for a "chat" with someone you know who is physically imposing armed with a baseball bat......

He wouldn't be long surrendering the phone

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120658582#Comment_120658582

My take from @Peregrinus's earlier post is that the phone belongs to the so called friend, as does the €1400 debt. Hoewever, were the Op to take the phone from the "friend" then the OP would potentially be putting themselves at risk of an accusation of theft.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120658782#Comment_120658782

Honestly, why do some people think suggesting breaking the law to solve this is a sensible method, especially in a Legal Discussion forum?

Markcheese

There's probably a back story of why the money was lent ..

Suggesting something obviously dodgy probably aint going to help ,

If the guy isnt paying then not much you can do .. I'm assuming he's not self employed or doing nixers ? 😁👍

brokenbad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120658808#Comment_120658808

Only in the case of when all other avenues have been exhausted.....

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120658808#Comment_120658808

The o/p is the owner of the phone in equity. He didn't gift it. Theft requires dishonest appropriation. Difficult to see how it would be dishonest to take possession of an item he jhas paid for. It is some thing that happens every day of the week, know as an unpaid sellers lien.

Corkusr

Because he won’t give it back.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120658934#Comment_120658934

The OP never owned the phone and so couldn't have sold it to his friend. He has no unpaid seller's lien.

The deal was always that the phone would be the friend's; the OP would be putting up the money and getting repaid the money. The OP is explicity about this. This is loan, not a purchase-and-sale of the phone by the OP.

thesandeman

Does the fact that the phone is in the OP's name (assuming he still has the proof of purchase) not mean it is technically his?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120660491#Comment_120660491

No, I don't think so. Phones aren't in the class of property that has a registration of title system, like land or cars. All the receipt shows is that the OP bought the phone, but other evidence — not least the OP's own evidence — shows that he was buying it on behalf of his friend, not on his own behalf. And this is likely to be reinforced by the later exchange of texts, in which the OP doesn't say thing like "give me back my phone", but rather "pay me the money you owe me".

The Continental Op

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120660494#Comment_120660494

not least the OP's own evidence

In all likelihood the OP is the only one with any evidence. You are assuming the "friend" still has a record of these text messages.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120660672#Comment_120660672

I'm not. But the OP has them; that's enough.

miamee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120658680#Comment_120658680

Agree but the person who wanted the €1400 phone didn't pay for it and the person who did pay thought they were getting their money back 🤷‍♂️ No one wanted to be down €1400 for the phone when you look at it that way.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120660464#Comment_120660464

The op bought the phone as in he provided the funds on the basis he would be re-imbursed. On that basis the phone is his until paid for. All the equity case point to the provider of funds as being the owner. In the lottery tick cases the national Lottery will only pay the prize to the person whose name is on the back of the ticket but the courts will order payment to the person who provided the funds or part of the funds for the ticket.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120658680#Comment_120658680

Unless they can manage to persuade someone else to pay the €1400 for them?

OP, does the person live with family? Try calling round to their missus or their mammy and let them know that you need your money or your phone back.

Corkusr

Afraid not, it’s just them and found out recently they owe other people money too. Honestly I think it’s a lost cause to get any money back and that’s why my initial question related to ownership (as I thought it could be a matter of saying “I bought it, the receipt is in my name, therefore I own it so please give it back”).

Claw Hammer

Why not arrange to meet this person and wait until they put the phone down and just take it?

Corkusr

Because that is theft unless I know that I am the legal owner.

brokenbad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120663038#Comment_120663038

You haven't answered @Claw Hammers question regarding meeting up?

Surely you know where this guy lives - why not just drop round unannounced or arrange a meetup for a pint??

Tell him the phone provider contacted you to say you are due a free upgrade on the phone - that will pique his interest

Corkusr

Not an option as don’t really talk anymore (because of this) and the contract with phone provider is in his name.