Inheritance on family home

oleard1987

I'll try and describe this as best I can

My father is the oldest of 6 .Family have a home that is over 100 years old and my grandparents lived there until they passed away .There was no will as far as we know and my father doesn't want to speak about it

Speaking to other family members the house was passed to my father as he was the oldest .One of his siblings has lived in the house with his partner for as long as I can remember .None of the family speak to her

Sadly since then 3 of my dad's siblings have passed .I have checked the land registry and the house is still showing registered to my great grand father

Who will inherit the house .My fear is that is will somehow end up with my Dad's siblings partner or my eldest sibling as I know they both will instantly think of selling it and that would break my heart as we spent many happy years there on holidays

I know people will say ask my father but he really won't talk about it

Any advice would be welcome

Ginger83

I would advise talking to a solicitor. Without a will anyone in the family could claim that they were promised the property.

Does your father have any intentions?

oleard1987

No,He is fairly elderly now and has been divorced from my mother over 20 years

I've been reading about common law wife but according to citizens right (correct me if I'm wrong)They are not in Irish legislation

The house burnt down roughly 10 years ago and my father covered the cost of the rebuild so I presuming he has some claim to the house

Peregrinus

This is a mess.

To identify the legal position you're going to need a complete family tree, starting with your great-grandfather and showing all his descendants, and their spouses, with dates of birth and death, down to the present day. And you're going to need to establish from the probate office whether a grant of probate or a grant of administration was taken out in respect of anyone on that family tree who has died, and if so obtain a copy of the grant.

That will enable legal claims to title to the house and land to be traced all the way down to descendants now living, depending on whether wills have been made and what was in them. Then add to the mix information about any claims that people might have arising out of promises made, services rendered, money invested, etc.

Then bring all of that to a solicitor, together with your chequebook. You're going to need a big chequebook.

3DataModem

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058296904/inheritance-on-family-home

my grandparents lived there until they passed away.

• Let's assume they owned the house.

There was no will as far as we know. I have checked the land registry and the house is still showing registered to my great grand father. Speaking to other family members the house was passed to my father as he was the oldest.

• You can check if your grandparents were probated or not (or the equivalent for people without a will) online. If they have not been, then the house has passed to nobody yet, it is still in the "estate" of your grandparents, whatever the other family members say.

One of his siblings has lived in the house with his partner for as long as I can remember. None of the family speak to her

• Irrelevant in relation to who inherited the house.

Sadly since then 3 of my dad's siblings have passed.

• So IF your grandparents died without a will, then the house would have probably gone to the 6 siblings equally, including the three who died, and the one who lives there.
• The three who died would have had a share which would have then passed to their children or spouses or partners or whatever if THEY didn't have a will. If they did have a will, their share may have gone to anyone. If one of those siblings wrote a will saying "I leave everything to the cats home" then the cats home has a claim to 1/6th of the house.

Who will inherit the house.

• Someone (or more likely, a half-dozen or more people) probably already have, but it just hasn't been administered / probated properly yet.

My fear is that is will somehow end up with my Dad's siblings partner or my eldest sibling

• It's pretty certain that if the GPs had no will then it will pass in part to those people.

as I know they both will instantly think of selling it and that would break my heart

• If you really really think it would break your heart, think of the new family making all their memories in the lovely house. Better a family with children owns it then 6 estranged siblings or a dozen cousins.

I know people will say ask my father but he really won't talk about it

• Well, someone somewhere may have already dealt with this, and may have stepped in to Administer the Grandparents affairs as per the law for those who die without a will. You can check this, it is in the public domain.
• If this has NOT happened, then the eldest sibling or other sibling (it's normally a next of kin) can apply to Administer the Grandparents affairs and get it handled properly. "Handled properly" means finding the likely dozens of people who are entitled to a share of it (assuming your deceased aunts and uncles had children, wives, or partners). This will require a solicitor, and someone will have to pay them (especially as the Grandparents estate doesn't seem to have any actual money in it).
• And if any of those siblings have settled judgements, divorces, or other things, then it gets more complex, as some of those things may have to be unwound.

Here's what I'd do;

• If the house is worth a small amount, the legal bills will almost certainly require it to be sold. Maybe you could buy it cheap off the Administrator of the estate? Then it just becomes about distribution of money, which is a lot easier to carve up.
• If the house is worth a huge amount, then it might be worth fighting for your dad's share.
• But remember, the GPs are gone, so there's no way to change who gets the house. It's probably going to the 6 siblings equally, and nothing anyone says can change that unless the two living ones "disclaim" their claims, something the deceased ones cannot do.

Peregrinus

This analysis of the issues is very sound, except that it starts with the assumption that the grandparents owned the house, when we are explicitly told that the great-grandfather is still the registered owner. So (unless one of the grandparents was the only child of the great-grandfather) the fact that the grandparents lived it it does not necessarily mean that they owned it; they may have only owned a share in it, with other children of the great-grandfather owning other shares, which will have passed under their wills or to their desdendants.

In other words, pretty much what 3DataModem says, except we have to back to the great-grandfather, not the grandfather, and trace all those descended from him. That's everyone out as far as the OP's second cousins and their spouses and, if any of them have died, their children, who would be the OP's second cousins once removed.

Like I said, this is a mess.

Water John

The other side of that, you can see, is that it would cost anyone a lot if they wished to sell.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120610497#Comment_120610497

"The house burnt down roughly 10 years ago and my father covered the cost of the rebuild so I presuming he has some claim to the house"

This fact is very strange, he must have a reason for engaging in what was likely considerable expenditure. I think you need to sit down again with your father, explain some of the potential difficulties as explained above and ask him for help. Presumably he would not want there to be unreasonable trouble for anyone sorting this out. Whatever he knows, which can be written down and signed, witnessed etc appropriately will likely be of good help. You also need to talk to the other aunt/ uncle that is not resident in the house to see what they understand. And ideally you should talk to your uncle resident in the house. Approach this from the POV that there is an issue here and that you/ others would like to see the matter regularised and cleared up to the mutual satisfaction of all.

oleard1987

Much appreciate all the advice .I have the family tree completed and it could get very messy .

My grandfather was one of 18 .17 siblings emigrated to the states and my grandmother was one of 13 .Again a lot of her family would have emigrated to the states .

I'll try speak to my father again and if that doesn't resolve anything.Ill speak to a solicitor.

F1ngers

One of his siblings has lived in the house with his partner for as long as I can remember

Would they have "squatters rights" by now?

monseiur

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120611248#Comment_120611248

Unless the house is worth a substantial sum, which is unlikely seeing it's over 100 years built, I would hazard a guess that legal and associated costs would leave very little to distribute to what could be over 24 beneficiaries. Suggesting buying it off the administrator cheap or otherwise may not be that simple - In the worst case scenario, the sibling who's living there for some considerable time may not just pack his bags and go. As a sibling he may feel that he has certain rights plus he may claim squatters rights. He's living rent free & mortgage free at the moment, why should he walk away from all that without a fight? The legal costs in trying to have him evicted could be expensive & be long drawn out without any certainty of being successful. The law sometimes works in mysterious ways! If I was a betting man I'd wager a fistful of dollars that the current occupant is there to stay unless he moves out on his own accord....the fact that relations between the rest of the family and his partner is another obstacle.

3DataModem

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120612854#Comment_120612854

No. If the others are aware she is living there, squatters rights don't apply. The dad paying for repairs also mitigates this.

3DataModem

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120611324#Comment_120611324

Holy crap how did I miss that.

So it's going to be basically 100's of hands in the trough on this one.

Only hope is to try and get a cabal of family to convince the courts to appoint one of you (your dad preferably) as the Administrator and sell the thing to a friendly (like the OP) and let the money get chopped up into a million bits.

phormium

I watch a lot of Heir Hunters Tv programme, it's that in reverse in that you know who the heirs are more or less and you just have to work back to great-grandparents. Cost a fortune to sort I would imagine for miniscule shares, people can be very head in the sand about sorting things like this, have a friend who lives in a house owned by her late grandfather, passed on to father and then to her but nothing every done, father now long deceased too. Mess being left for next generation!

oleard1987

Just to add the house is on an island with less than 100 inhabitants. No broadband and very little phone signal .There is substantial land with the property but it is sitting on mountain rock and marshy bog with very strict planning .

I have no problem with my uncle living there till his final days .Touch wood it's many years to come .When the time comes I have no problem with the house being divided between my father's 3 kids and his siblings 4 kids .

I'd even share with my oldest sibling but I will do everything I can to stop his partner getting her hands on it

How can I check probate on will from pre 1920 does anybody know ?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120614122#Comment_120614122

If your great-grandfather had 18 children and neither he nor his wife (if she survived him) made any will then your grandfather, despite living in the house, inherited only a 1/18th share it in. If he (and his wife) both made no wills than 1/18th share will have been split between their children, of whom there were 6, so that means your father owns a 1/108th share in the house. Dividing that between his three kids gives each of them a 1/324th share in the house — about a 0.31% share.

Your big problem is going to being identifying who owns the rest of the house. It seems likely that 17/18ths of it — about 94% — is divided among your American second cousins, who are likely to be a mighty tribe. If you have completed a family tree that includes all of them, that's pretty impressive.

Your father might have a claim over the house for reimbursement of the money he spent on it (or, at least, of 107/108ths of the money he spent on it) but that claim is against the owners of the rest of the house and, in order to pursue that claim, the owners still need to be identified. And your uncle who lives in the house and who may want to advance a claim based on his occupation of it will face a similar problem.

Researching pre-1920 wills is all but impossible, since the records involved were destroyed in the burning of the Public Record Office in the Civil War. However if wills had been made, and had been admitted to probate, then the house would almost certainly not still be registered to your great-grandfather. So I think if this case ever does come to court, the court would proceed on the basis that there are no relevant pre-1920 wills.

Cutting through the tangles, I think the key point is that your uncle and his partner live in the house, and it's hard to identify anybody else who will be easily able to establish that they are entitled to possession of the house, and so to evict your uncle. So he's there for as long as he wants to stay (and so is she, if she survives him). But neither of them will be able to sell the house.

If your uncle makes a will purporting to leave the house to anyone, when he dies that's the time for your father (or his heirs) to head into court to assert their rights. But by all accounts the house is not very valuable and the facts are (and therefore the proceedings will be) very complicated. The court will want your American cousins joined in the proceedings so that they can assert and defend their interests in the house. So this may simply be not worth litigating over, at least in economic terms.

A practical solution that might be attainable is for you and your siblings and your uncle's children to agree that you will share the use of the house (as a holiday house, assuming none of you want to live in it) and the costs of maintenance between you, and simply wait for any claim or challenge from other family members, which may never come. The house will still be unsaleable, but that may be something you can live with.

Bridget Clarke

Moral of the story, lads, be sure to make a will. Best of luck, OP, you have your work cut out for you.

ittakestwo

There is a stauate of limitations of 12 years to bring a claim against the deceased estate. This means if a person dies without making a will you have 12 years to claim a share. If you dont you cant. So i think alot of your great grandfather's family cant make a claim in the estate now.

Presumably the action of living in the house is seen by law as making a claim against the estate??? Which means your grandfather took the only interest in the estate from your great grandfather and your uncle took the only interest from grandfather. This really needs to be answered by a solicitor and quite possibly a barrister who specialises in this complex matter.

Do you know who was paying the property tax and insurance on the house. You said the house burnt down and your father paid for the rebuilding. Nobody paying insurance? If you father paid for the rebuilding of the house i would imagine it puts him at the table in making a claim as owner too.

3DataModem

" This means if a person dies without making a will you have 12 years to claim a share."

• I don't think this is quite right. Nobody has probated or administered the great-grand-parents will, so I don't think the 12 year 'clock' has started ticking.

Claw Hammer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120632169#Comment_120632169

This is not correct. Claims against the estate of the deceased must be commenced within 2 years of the date of death.

That is not the issue in this case. It is not a claim against the estate per se but a right to a share in the estate.

The question now is, what are the assets in the estate, specifically, is this house in the estate?

Has the occupier of the house at some point squatted out all of the other potential claimants?

If so what has happened to that occupiers estate or interest in the state?

Did the o/ps grandparents squat out the other potential claimants and transfer their possessory interest to the o/p's father?

Do the o/ps aunts and uncles have a potential claim?

Lenar3556

Probate / Administration is likely dead in the water.

Adverse possession will likely be the remedy at some future date.

rachaellll

Hello,

I plan to buy the family home and I will be buying it under probate valuation.

In regards to inheritance tax do I need to declare the probate valuation or can I declare the amount I will be buying the house for?

I will be buying the family home for 15k lower than probate valuation.

My mum had a will and I’ll be buying my brother out.

Thanks for any help

Claw Hammer

You will need to declare at least the probate valuation unless the house has suffered damage since the date of the valuation. You will have to stamp the deed at the higher value. If the house is left 50/50 it will be deemed as a gift of 7.5k from your brother to you. This will only affect you in the event that your brother has already made gifts to you or he does so in the future.