Barristers crying about legal aid fees

Everlong1

Apparently barristers are not happy about the money they're getting for legal aid. This would seem to run counter to the belief, frequently expressed on Boards - and which I must say I find easy to believe - that one of the reasons why we have such a ludicrously lenient criminal justice system is because the legal profession is rolling in wonga from FLA and it's in their interests to keep even the most violent depraved scummers on the streets racking up convictions in the hundreds.

https://www.thejournal.ie/barristers-protest-6057418-May2023/

Or maybe there's just too many beaks in the trough competing to free the scummers?

https://www.newstalk.com/news/ireland-has-too-many-barristers-report-finds-1359601

Boggles

Both your articles state how much they get paid.

I am absolutely shocked it's that low.

At present those practicing in the district court are paid €25.20 for a remand hearing, €50.40 for a plea in mitigation at a sentence hearing and €67.50 where a matter goes to a full trial

The report highlighted that some barristers earn as little as €25 a day for some criminal cases and Senator Ward said that junior barristers have an especially tough time

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580409#Comment_120580409

Like better call Saul. Collecting his public defender cheques at the counter that barely cover Jack. I would have to go back and see how much the clerk paid him

SEPT 23 1989

When the country went bankrupt over the moneylenders the IMF wanted to put manners on the whole legal business but were blocked at every turn

the whole thing is rotten to the core and will never change

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580465#Comment_120580465

Nobody blocks the IMF.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058295940/barristers-crying-about-legal-aid-fees

Interesting to use the word "crying" here when it seems that you are crying just as hard. Yes — there really is nothing more deplorable than a justice system that ensures that the individual citizen has good legal representation against the infinite resources of the State.

It's an endless circle of crying on here that one minute the new hate speech bill represents the overreach of the State and the crushing of individual liberties — and the next minute the hard working barristers, who are instrumental to evening the odds between the powerless and the power of the State, are the enemies of the people.

I work in the legal field myself and I can tell you, if money is your primary motivation the criminal bar is certainly not the place to be going. So the perceptions about lawyers rolling in it relate to a fairly select few when it comes to representing defendants in criminal proceedings.

bureau2009

....... EXCEPT Ireland's very influential legal profession.

SEPT 23 1989

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580472#Comment_120580472

They did unfortunately

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580507#Comment_120580507

Where's the money at so? I recently gave a legal firm €300 and that was just for the consultation.

10-10-20

Ah sure they don't have a leg to stand on:

2002:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/20m-paid-to-legal-aid-lawyers-last-year-1.1126895

2019:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/legal-aid-payments-to-lawyers-rose-to-more-than-60m-last-year-1.4174177

2022:

https://www.newstalk.com/uncategorized/criminal-legal-aid-payments-barristers-half-million-1318893

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580730#Comment_120580730

These reports highlight the top earners, not the bottom earners who are making 25 euro a case, not half a million a case. Failed to report the names of the lowest compensated solicitors.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580730#Comment_120580730

I'm sorry, do you think these are large numbers for an entire profession?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580409#Comment_120580409

I'm not shocked unfortunately. It is not a well paid profession precisely because it is politically unpopular to pay people to defend "criminals".

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580593#Comment_120580593

The entire point is that the legal aid fees are deeply, deeply below market rates and rely on criminal barristers working on the cheap.

Oscar_Madison

It’s well known in early years earnings are low for newly qualified barristers as they complete their devilling- pretty much working for free for 12-18 months.

It’s the bar council/law library/ senior barristers themselves who are keeping this slave labour going- they could change if they wanted to because let’s face it, they’re a law onto themselves- but keeping the monopoly within the few suits them just fine.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580736#Comment_120580736

Point being that there is a fair pot of cash out there and it seems that some practices are specialising in FLA cases, hence the lower earners are either picking the poorly paid cases, or aren't competing to the same level.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580781#Comment_120580781

So you're saying there's a lot of disparity in the profession as the have's beat out the have not's for all the resources and big daddy lawyer bucks is wiping his ass with ribeye steaks and his colleague is trying to keep coins in his washing machine?

Sounds like the top earners will be needing to take a cut.

Quitelife

Some of the yarns and excuses that free legal aid solicitors come up with for criminals terrorising the law abiding is scandalous and they should be ashamed of themselves coming out with such rubbish .

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580930#Comment_120580930

Your honour, he was drunk when he committed the heinous crime (his 149th but who's counting?) however, he has brought €4.35 from his son's piggy bank by way of compensation to the person he carried out the crime against. Also his mother was 4 numbers away from winning the lotto jackpot as a teenager. Furthermore he once opened a box of corn flakes and there was no toy inside.

€25 please.

Count Dracula

If it was such a doddle and the country is seemingly being held to ransom by the legal profession, why don't you go get your FAE's and join the party?

Why waste your time cranking your minds out on here .... when you should be down the Death Star sorting your wallet out?

The fact remains that very few barristers in Ireland are making a decent living - easily one of our most competitive professions. Your success at the bar will rely heavily on, contacts initially.. and if you can manoeuvre yourself through that quagmire, you better be super efficient and fundamentally successful , that part is a son of a bitch to master and that is before you get the respect of your peers and the judges? In short it is a very difficult and precarious profession, they deserve every penny.

The law is a real thing. Everyone breaks it, the law is like an asshole, everyone **** through it and thinks there shít don't stink. Well it does crankers, and one day I promise you , I don't know when, or why, or how... but you will be kicking, crying and screaming for a barrister.

The reason we have lots of criminals on our streets is because we have a deficiency in prison space and indeed staff to manage any ad hoc solutions to our crime problem. It has nothing to do with the barristers or solicitors who worked in the Criminal justice System. Frankly if you don't recognise or understand that fact you live in a very gormless existence, most likely flooded with drivel and lazy intuition, neither will serve you. There is no shiny cabal of smart ass chunts, getting rich swanning around Dublin 1 freeing criminals, if you think there is you haven't a clue, you really don't.

Potential-Monke

€25 a case, I've seen some of them go through 10 cases in a couple of hours, €250 if they were all FLA, more if not. Full sentencing hearings can be as short as 30 min, €67. Something isn't... adding up.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120581204#Comment_120581204

You think that zero work is done outside of the court?

€250 for a couple hours work when you are self employed and potentially have staff and expenses to pay out of it is not particularly amazing.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120581196#Comment_120581196

FAEs are accounting exams mate, wouldn't be much use.

Potential-Monke

Jaysus, I dunno. The only ones working in Waterford court daily for about 8 years didn't seem to be struggling, and had great social lives. Laughing at us with their revolving door state sponsored clients. Cry me a river for those who defend the indefensible.

Quitelife

If the government have excess money they should be building more prisons to rid our towns and cities of the scumm destroying our country and laughing at the law abiding !

Padraig Mor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580930#Comment_120580930

Aye. Pair of lowlife filth jailed yesterday in Cork for robbing a 93 year old woman's handbag and giving her life changing injuries in the process. 313 convictions between them IIRC - think of that the next time these defence barrister parasites are looking for more taxpayer cash. In this case they only pled guilty on the day of the case when the old woman turned up in court - doubtless the impoverished legal eagles paid to defend them by many posters in this site had them told to stay schtum in case the old bird kicked the bucket before the trial.

Podge_irl

Barristers are obliged to defend their clients to the best of their ability. If you are ever in the unfortunate position of being wrongly accused of a crime I assume you don't want your barrister to look at you and say "nah, you're a piece of **** and you deserve it" and not try very hard to defend you. It is not their job to decide judgement.

This is the equivalent of expecting doctors to decide who deserves treatment.

El Gato De Negocios

The legal fraternity are a large part of the reason that insurance industry is in the toilet, charging in the region of 40% of the settlement as their fee. My heart bleeds.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120581279#Comment_120581279

This has absolutely nothing to do with legal aid cases.

Count Dracula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120581279#Comment_120581279

There is no legal aid involved in insurance cases.

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580507#Comment_120580507

That would be the same justice system which ensures that a good many of our finest individual citizens are walking the streets free and clear with 150 plus convictions, looking for their next opportunity to rape and rob and confident that they won't have to worry about paying for their defence as the free legal aid tap is always on for them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120581391#Comment_120581391

A lifetime cap on free legal aid per person should be introduced. If you commit 100 crimes why should the state continue to fund your defense? And I'd happily reduce thay number to 3.

If I commit a crime I'm not getting free legal aid. Only for Anto and the boys on the Liffey boardwalk.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580593#Comment_120580593

Well to start with a legal firm is not a barrister and that’s what this thread is about!

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120581399#Comment_120581399

Spot on. If we're all wrong about the majority of barristers coining it in from FLA then that's fine and I'm glad to hear it. My real problem is with career scumbags effectively being subsidised to commit crime, which is what the FLA scheme as it's currently constituted amounts to.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120581399#Comment_120581399

A lifetime cap on free legal aid per person should be introduced.

How about for barristers too? Got millionaires on the take in the profession. If anything they should be doing pro bono work for tax breaks?

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120581204#Comment_120581204

The bit that is not adding up is your understanding of the work needed to get to those 30 minutes in court. Let’s say you need two hours to go through the documents, check the facts etc., then you are going to have to met with your client so add another hour. So that’s three hours of your time plus the 30 mins in court, but before you get any of the 25 Euros you are going to have to pay for the admin for your practice, the professional insurance, the office accommodation and so on. In the end you’ll get perhaps 5 Euro an hour!

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120581279#Comment_120581279

Absolutely nonsense. Insurance companies don’t make money from insurance. Eventually an insurance company will payout every cent they collect in premiums, in fact a well run company is one the pays out less than about 110% of the premiums. Low interest rates have decimated insurance companies all across the first world because that was traditionally where the made their profits and bridged the gap between payouts and premiums.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120581440#Comment_120581440

Typically, high-volume FLA cases in the district court are the low-end of the profession, and the barristers subsisting on that type of work aren't exactly "coining it" as you put it. As another poster alluded to, the juice isn't exactly worth the squeeze.

FLA is an essential part of the justice system. Otherwise you'll have the state and prosecutors steamrollering low-income defendants (and not so low-income) on threadbare charges and any semblance of a balanced legal system goes out the window. Perhaps that's something you might think as desireable, but I've lived in countries where the justice system is a complete mirage, the trial process is pure theatre and a parody of justice. You might say well and good, but FLA is essential component in ensuring that justice is done.

There's probably a few dozen high-profile Senior Counsel practicioners that make serious money in the way you describe. They're not slumming it in the FLA pool outside some district court in the midlands.

Cookie_Monster

So why are they not getting minimum wage for hours worked?

Everlong1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120581526#Comment_120581526

I'm not saying that the FLA scheme is wrong in and of itself. I do understand the basic principle that everyone is entitled to decent representation and that the scheme provides a way to ensure that people from low incomes have that right. My problem is that the system as it currently operates, where career recidivist thugs can get free representation every single time they commit a crime, is enabling them to keep doing what they do...being career recidivist scumbags. How else do you explain someone with 150 plus convictions walking the streets? If there other factors behind that I'd love to hear about them and, more importatnly, what we can do to change the situation.

I'm no idiot conspiracy theorist but I find it hard to look at the current situation and not come to the conclusion that the entire criminal justice system is weighted towards protecting the thug, with a few token nods towards the rights of the victims and the public such as allowing victim impact statements. And again, while I'm no loony lefty anti-free market Socialist Worker fantasist, it's also very hard to avoid coming to the conclusion that, just like our two tier health system and the current housing fiasco, there's an increasing number of utter vermin being allowed to walk free and stay on the streets, preying on decent people, because someone, somewhere, has a serious vested interest in seeing such a situation exist.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120580593#Comment_120580593

Well I'd point out firstly there that you presumably paid that to a solicitor firm, not to a barrister. The conditions for solicitors in criminal law are better in that they are typically full time salaried employees and that comes with at least a good degree of certainty of getting paid a set amount.

As to what your money goes to, like any other industry it goes to rent, utilities, salaries etc. A lot of firms rely on work like conveyancing just to keep the lights on. Yes, the equity partners in the firm will pocket the most, and there are some very high earning criminal law lawyers out here — but it's very much a select few. Most solicitors in criminal law (hell, even in commercial law) earn way, way less than society seems to believe they do.

Most young people training in or studying Law these days (and for a long time now) understand well that you are not likely to make great money in criminal law. Those who do it will do it out of interest or passion for it. If you want to eventually make the kind of money that gets you a nice house on the Southside then it's the big commercial firms you want to be getting into, and even there you are seeing an exodus of young newly qualified solicitors to London where they can quite literally earn up to 2-3 times what they wil get in Dublin.

ArthurDayne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120581391#Comment_120581391

Oh the system is far from perfect — but barristers and solicitors do not write the laws, they don't control free legal aid, they don't set the amounts for it. Their job is to defend their client within the framework of the law and it's up to the State to build and drive that framework. The free legal aid system is not perfect, but at the very least it tries to ensure that access to legal representation when your liberty is at stake is not the sole reserve of the businessman with the 7 bedroom house in Monkstown.

To the extent that the work of lawyers, who have a fiduciary duty of care to their clients, seems to expose issues with how the system works for multiple offenders etc etc — then it's the State's job to fix that. Blaming lawyers for the systemic problems is as useful as blaming doctors and nurses for the state of the health system — ultimately responsibility lies with the government.

Quitelife

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120581277#Comment_120581277

Some of the Biggest scumbags in the country , terrorising young and old are on the streets due to free legal aid solicitors trying every trick/yarn in the book to get them off. Those summbags could then go on to rob or kill peoples mothers or grandmothers!!

How anyone could make excuses for their carry on clearly has zero morals and i and most other people would be ashamed to be related to one of these free legal aid solicitors!

Nermal

Whenever an occupation collectively cribs about pay and benefits, ask the question: is there a shortage of applicants?

If not, ignore and move on.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582012#Comment_120582012

A barrister's job is not to prejudge their client. A barrister also can not choose their client.

This is the equivalent of blaming doctors for doing everything they can to treat "scumbags" instead of letting them die.

Lionel Fusco

It is very annoying for the average person when they see the wig stand up and come out with pathetic almost laughable excuses for little Johnny scumbag and his 40th suspended sentence and some of the stuff they come out with at rape trials is absolutely abhorrent BUT the alternative is worse if there is no FLA the state effectively gets to pick and choose who gets a defence and who doesn't. Justice becomes the preserve of the rich only. The rates for FLA are deliberately kept low so as too ensure the poor get a worse defence than the rich. The rates should be upped and upped considerably.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582085#Comment_120582085

How about Johnny doesn't commit 40 crimes (and they're just the ones he got caught for). A simple policy of 1 free legal aid per citizen per year would be more than generous and not used by the overwhelming majority of the country. And those clowns at Irish Council for Civil Liberties couldn't cry unfair, because Johnny still has access to free legal aid for his first annual offence, after that he can get f**ked.

I'd apply the same logic to free travel and free GP visits. A basic allowance for all, and after you exhaust your annual allowance you pay your way.

Giving things for free is of no benefit to anybody.

We should be trying to decrease the cost of FLA to the state, not increase it.

I have no issue with Barristers getting a reasonable rate for the work they do, but we as a society should not be on the hook for the cost of repeat offenders or those found guilty of committing a crime.

Options should be:

You commit a crime plead guilty and take your punishment.

You plead not guilty and you are found guilty of the crime the state pays upfront for the cost of legal representation but garnishes your pay or social welfare after to recover the costs. Repeat offenders have access to all social supports removed until they can show they are a contributing member of society.

You plead not guilty and you are found not guilty the state covers the cost.

Quitelife

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582064#Comment_120582064

But defending terrible individuals with blatant fibs and lies who go onto cause even further mayhem & Misery to others in their communities is unjustifiable

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582127#Comment_120582127

I'd apply the same logic to free travel and free GP visits. A basic allowance for all, and after you exhaust your annual allowance you pay your way.

How may GP visits would you allow for someone with cancer?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120582152#Comment_120582152

Isn't proven that if you remove social supports crime goes up not down?