Giro d'Italia 2023

Large bottle small glass

😀.

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120651055#Comment_120651055

https://sportsmedicine-open.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40798-016-0065-9

That's a good overview of its history and use to date.

https://karger.com/books/book/202/chapter-abstract/5135992/Practical-Considerations-for-Bicarbonate-Loading?redirectedFrom=fulltext

That should be as good it gets, Bourke has massive practical and research experience with elite athletes but I'm not buying it for you 😁

Just to add the minimum starting dose for a say 60Kg athlete is about 12g, or about 15 Rennie; what could go wrong

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120653078#Comment_120653078

Can I do 15 Rennigel instead? They’re chewy, not chalky

DonegalBay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120652573#Comment_120652573

Yeah ranking sprinters across eras is pointless, far more sprints in the modern era compared to pre 90s when sprint trains were not really a thing. When we rank the greats, it is usually based on the same set of races, GTs, Worlds, Monuments, the numbers don't really change, but the amount of sprint races varies all the time even in GTs. Between 1989-92, there was a total of 9 full bunch sprints at the Tour. Between 08-11 Cavendish won 20 and that wasn't all the sprint stages. You ain't going to win 20 stages if there is only 9 opportunities.

To show the evolution, in Cipollinis first Tour in 1992, there was 2 mass sprints total. The first one was in the 2nd week after the first mountains and the second one was in Paris. Compare that to Cipos last Tour in 99 when I think there was about 8 sprint stages. The difference teams dedicated to creating sprint finishes made completely changed the game.

Likewise there are modern races like the Middle East events, Tour of Turkey, ZLM Tour, US races loaded with sprint opportunities that just didn't exist when Cipo was around. Again going to have an impact on comparisons based purely on numbers. Very little doubt Cav is one of the all-time great sprinters, but all this undisputed GOAT talk is just numbers based. Of course much of it is pushed by the Anglo media and his bike sponsor Specialized. Cav could have surpassed Cipo in GT wins long ago if his sponsors had not wanted him doing the Tour of California instead of the Giro, but then the Giro was always far more important for an Italian, riding for Itallian sponsor in an era when Italian cycling was the top dog in the sport. It is all relative

If you look purely at numbers, sure go with Cav, but that hides the nuances of the evolution of sprinting withing the sport. Personally I would go with Freddy Maertens as the best of all time.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120652664#Comment_120652664

The problem with these comparisons is that cycling has become more and more specialised. With Pogacar bucking that trend.

Up until the 90s all the GC guys competed in the classics against all the sprinters. So one year a GC guy would win MSR or Gent-Wevelgem or Amstel Gold. The next a sprinter would.

Then around the late 90s 2 types of sprinter diverged. Cipollini and Erik Zabel being the best versions of each. A Grand Tour sprinter who won **** loads of stages and competed less in the classics, losing to the classics sprinters in the classics. And a classics sprinter who had a chance in the Grand Tour stages but was mainly beaten by the grand tour.

Cavendish is the supreme embodiment of the stage hunting grand tour sprinter. But he’s won fewer stages than Cipollini. Their classics records are pretty similar, but Cipollini edges it with Gent Wevelgem x3.

There is no metric you can apply to support an argument that Cavendish is better than Cipollini. Except your stages and it’s silly to just pick one race. Cipollini targeted the Giro because he was Italian on an Italian team.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120652110#Comment_120652110

The 90s was a crazy time man. I used to wear supper baggy jeans and metallic shirts.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120653408#Comment_120653408

I completely agree with most of that.

But would Freddy call himself a sprinter? He was a lunatic hard man.

Dcully

Shame Kittel left the sport to soon, he was a monster for a period when he came onto the scene regularly beating Cavendish.

Dodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120651376#Comment_120651376

I never said anything about Cav. I was responding to the post above mine that he couldn’t remember a giro without sprinters leaving. I might have taken that up wrong, but I wasn’t commenting about Cav

He won. He’s the greatest sprinter I’ve ever seen. We still had a poor field left in the giro. All these things are true IMO

Dodge

Also LOL @ the idea that Oscar Freire is a better sprinter than Cav or Cipolini

Macy0161

His biggest bit of luck was Thomas helping him with the positioning when he really needed it (given Astana gave him no leadout at all). I'd say the one Cav got lucky with the sprint field was his last tour, but then he lost those years with Epstein–Barr and other health issues. So on balance, still probably the greatest sprinter, but also a bit of a nob at times.

Weepsie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120653785#Comment_120653785

Your logic is a bit flawed. Cavendish has won the points classification on all 3 gcs.

A man who enters 26gcs and finishing only 6 deliberately is more an embodiment of a stage hunter imo.

Cavendish has been around for the era of the sprint trains, but there have been countless races where he's ambushed other teams.

People don't like Cavendish, and that's absolutely fine, but this trying to belittlw his phenomenal achievements is petty, especially when bigging up those of a woman beating shitehawk who is a stain on the sport.

Cavendish has more classics with the 7 to 6. So why is that similar, but 57 to 54 stage wins is some sort of chasm?

Mefistofelino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120654369#Comment_120654369

More WCs and monuments than those two combined, plus if Cav ever did this, there'd probably be deaths involved...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-araCVvDmWU

CramCycle

No one going to mention Sagan? I have to say it's difficult to follow the conversation as the riders being compared are so immensely different in their type of sprint and as a consequence the type of races they entered.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120654454#Comment_120654454

Who’s belittling? Certainly not me. I’m pointing out that he isn’t the greatest sprinter every based on empirical numbers. How in gods name is that belittling?

7 classics wins? Are you seriously going to make a case that Kuurne Brussels Kuurne and Milan Torino are on a par with Gent Wevelgem??

Milan Torino is a semi classic, as is the Munsterland Giro so it’s actually 6-5 Cipolli.

I don’t like Cavendish, but he’s an excellent sprinter. The only one belittling anyone is you repeatedly insulting Cipollini . He’s not likeable, but he was an amazing sprinter. Horrible human being, but a better sprinter than Cavendish by any measure

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120654369#Comment_120654369

Yeah, ridiculous.

Congratulations on 2nd by the way. I was carrying too much dead weigh in Jungels and Magli to win. My mate won the league and 20 of my euros.

Paddigol

Delighted for Cav. Delighted for all the ABCs too.

Dodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120654457#Comment_120654457

WCs and monuments aren’t won by sprinters. Christ l, Cipolini couldn’t get into the 3rd week of most grand tours but he’d still beat his generation in 95% of sprints.

Cavendish’s MSR is an astonishing performance

If you want to argue Oscar Frieire was an overall better cyclist than Cav, fire away, but there’s absolutely no way he was a better sprinter.

Mefistofelino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120654614#Comment_120654614

That's if you regard the only "acceptable" form of sprinting the Grand Tour, big lead out train, strangle the bunch for the last 40km version. And if WCs aren't won by sprinters, how did both Cav and Cipo both win their titles, using the exact same tactics that are applied to their "day jobs"?

Because of three Grand National wins in the marquee event of the sport, people reckon Red Rum is the greatest steeplechaser ever. Except the true answer is Arkle, who never even raced the national.

Cav is the Red Rum of sprinting.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120654528#Comment_120654528

Was just about to say the same about Sagan 👍

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120654614#Comment_120654614

Cavendish's WC win was very much a sprinters course as was Sagan's in Doha.

G1032

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120652800#Comment_120652800

I will admit I've never heard of Darrigade

Large bottle small glass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120652909#Comment_120652909

I doubt very much they winged it on the day; it's just likely that at the extreme edge of what's physiologically possible they went over the edge.

Like for that hill TT you probably looking at a massive carb dose prior to and during the ride. 60g/h was long thought to be the limit of what our guts could handle but seemingly by adding fructose to the other sugar they have almost doubled that number.

Add in almost an hour on the limit, at the end of a 3 week tour, and then adding bicarbonate it's almost inevitable that some riders will have gut issues.

Limiting hydration would be another stressor to the gut I expect.

Doc07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120651495#Comment_120651495

Presume this was satire, as slick and cool and bloody fast as Cipo was…he was a proven doper. Cav has nothing on his doping CV worse than a few dodgy energy drinks or vitamin supplements.

Mefistofelino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120654812#Comment_120654812

22 Tour stages, two green jerseys, World champion, Tour of Lombardy

Probably most famous for this crash of heads with an official at the end of a TdF stage in 1958. Darrigade fractured his skull. The official died.

Darrigade is still alive and in his mid 90s.

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655070#Comment_120655070

The carbs thing is a few years old now (certainly up to 90g/hr, at 1:08 glucose:fructose ratio), so I doubt it was that on it's own. I'm not suggesting winged it, but maybe put a few things that have individually worked together. Alternatively, he could've just been fecked after 3 weeks (and he still did an alright TT!).

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120656746#Comment_120656746

Could the fact he’s 37 and past his peak. I was surprised the performance he’d put in up to the last TT.

Mefistofelino

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120656974#Comment_120656974

There's probably a separate discussion to be had around what constitutes "peak" these days? Do legal / ethical developments in training, nutrition etc allow an athlete to remain in peak form to a greater age than perhaps 20 years ago? A 37 yo finishes second in the Giro, the final stage was won by a 38 yo sprinter. The current women's WC is 40 years old.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120657125#Comment_120657125

I’d say his peak was the Tour win. Not to be too black and white. He hasn’t really competed for overall in a Grand tour since then

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120657320#Comment_120657320

I don't think he was their primary focus for the Giro either. Geoghan-Hart came to the Giro is great form. I'd imagine he was no.1 for Ineos but when he went down the focus became Geraint.

Brian?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120657370#Comment_120657370

Yup. As much as I dislike Thomas, it was a great performance