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Development Pathways



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    That's not the context of how I used it; but I can give you chapter and verse in terms of stats if you want to show how Leinster have a far better track record of backing their younger players in these situations if you'd like?

    Here's the actual comment:

    What Munster should be asking themselves is why Tony Butler has only made 1 appearance total - off the bench against Wasps when two thirds of the team had COVID, in the past 2 seasons. Charlie Tector (less than 1 month older) has played 6 times for Leinster over the same period, while Sam Prendergast has more minutes for Leinster than Butler has for Munster.

    It's an entirely fair statement.

    Once again here, with a player injured, the proposal is to go and sign an "Alby Mathewson" type, rather than backing the two academy scrum halves you have, plus Neil Cronin who is still there on a senior contract.

    Banging on about having the least number of NIQ players is a bit much too - Munster have 2 at present, Leinster have 3 (I'm not including either Healy or Abdaladze), Ulster have 4, Connacht have 4.

    It's a fairly recent thing as well - last year Leinster had 1, while Munster have 4.

    You already have an NIQ centre coming in, which takes you level with Leinster, and if you sign the NIQ front rower, OH and now SH you want, it would be an almost unprecedented number of NIQ players.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s

    Wouldn’t the answer to that be that Munster usually need to win all their games (at the onset of each game) and can’t afford to carry a tector level player for most of their games?

    Like Prendergast got two caps because they were throw away games. Also, Munster have had pretty good OH depth and young depth.

    The big difference between munster and leinster to me, is that flannery and healy level players don’t leave leinster. Healy is a special case obviously but munster can’t as easily sell waiting their turn as leinster can.

    Also, Nankivell will put them at 2 NIQ next year right? That’s not crazy even if you added two more total.

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,633 ✭✭✭✭phog

    So hard to keep up here, same poster, almost polar opposite arguments about the same injury

    "and the fact that they will now need to spend money on a replacement in all likelihood"

    "Once again here, with a player injured, the proposal is to go and sign an "Alby Mathewson" type, rather than backing the two academy scrum halves you have, plus Neil Cronin who is still there on a senior contract."

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s

    Is Cronin on a contract for next year? If so, it would make sense just to use him.

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    Leinster don't just get minutes into academy players in throwaway games, and have a far better track record than the other provinces of actually seeing their academy players play meaningful minutes so to evaluate them, and not ending up with guys sitting on the senior squad who've almost never played for them.

    Contrast that with Tony Butler who is going into Year 3 of the Academy and his only time on the field has been 7 minutes off the bench in the COVID Armageddon game back in December '21, and now, Munster fans are clamouring again to sign another NIQ 10.

    The differences are pretty stark in Academy player utilisation.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s

    I mean they are clamouring to sign an NIQ 10 because they lose the 10s they develop unlike leinster and that’s not anywhere near entirely their fault. Leinster can sell guys on being way down depth charts because you can make the ireland squad more reliably like that at leinster.

    They had 3 young tens who needed minutes last year, and a **** ton of must win games this year.

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    The best players make Irish squads, regardless of where they sit on depth charts. This has been proven time and time again now.

    Leinster have way more guys in Irish squads because Leinster are way better than the other provinces at this moment in time.

    And, Jack Crowley made an Irish squad and got capped at a time when he'd done exactly nothing at a senior level in rugby, so not sure that argument stacks up. Ben Healy had plenty of minutes and opportunities, he just wasn't rated that highly by the Irish mgmt.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s

    How does that contradict what I said?

    They lost a Flannery level player (he was on the EI tour) and Leinster don’t lose Flannery level players pretty much ever.

    Also, again they played three young tens last year and had a ton of must win games this year.

    Doesn’t Healy getting tons of minutes and opportunity by 23 also refute the whole ‘they don’t play young players thing’?

    Your argument seems so disjointed to me. Do Munster not have good players or they don’t develop them? If they don’t have good players, why would you care if they are being developed?

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n

    Leinster lost Hawkshaw, who based on senior appearances is a couple of steps above a Flannery type player. Munster lost Flannery because at the time he had the Second Choice Irish OH in front of him and Healy and Crowley ahead of him too. While at Ulster there was Burns a regularly injured Madigan and little else. How many appearances did Flannery have for Munster?

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    You said:

    Leinster can sell guys on being way down depth charts because you can make the ireland squad more reliably like that at leinster.

    Which implies Leinster players are getting picked for Ireland undeservedly, or just because they're Leinster players. This patently isn't the case, and if it was, it's highly unlikely Ireland would be the #1 team in the world at present and Grand Slam champions.

    Leinster don't lose players like Flannery because they at the very least get minutes into them and give them an opportunity. Jake Flannery left Munster at 22 having played 4 times for them. Leinster have 7 Academy players this season alone who have played more for Leinster than that.

    Do Munster not have good players or they don’t develop them?

    We have no idea how good guys like Tony Butler, Ethan Coughlan, Jack Oliver etc are, because of the scarcity of opportunities they get. We'll have even fewer if NIQ players are added into the mix in front of them, at the very time when they should be getting trusted to step up and take more minutes.

    They are not as good at developing players. It's improved in recent times without question, but they still find themselves where the last 20 cap Irish international they produced is the 31 year old Niall Scannell.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s

    You are holding two separate thoughts in your head that clash.

    If you believe that

    A. leinster players get picked from way down the depth chart because they are better than players in other provinces

    then wouldn’t the most logical explanation for other provinces not playing guys as young be

    B. Leinster players are better so they play younger

    I don’t see how you can believe A and not believe B. Playing a few URC games doesn’t make an average player into a good player.

    So, again why would you care if they don’t play Butler that much? Doesn’t that just indicate that either he isn’t that good or they had other good reasons not to play him?

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s

    He wasn’t on the EI squad so i’d say no he’s not considered on the same level.

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    For a guy who has twice now accused me of making a confusing argument, I've literally no idea what point you're trying to make in the first piece there as the sentence seems to just fall off a cliff.

    Leinster seem to recognise better than the other provinces that it's a squad game, and therefore you need to expand your playing pool and get more minutes into more players. You have a better sense of what they're about, and see how they're able for the next level. It's very hard to make that call on a guy who literally never gets the chance.

    It would be a phenomenal coincidence if it just happened that all these guys who wither and die in academies without gametime were actually all just not up to it.

    These guys come through similar underage player pathways, and shine at underage levels.

    When they get into the academy, where the actual coaching and development is supposed to take place, they stall.

    James French is a perfect example of this - you've a guy who was an Irish U20 prop in 2018. He's 6ft 1, and 120kg. He was an All Ireland schoolboy shotput champion, so he's clearly got a good level of athleticism and power.

    He goes three years through the Munster academy, without getting a sniff of minutes (despite Munster fans consistently complaining about the quality of their scrum over the same period). He gets one appearance, the same COVID game against Wasps when the bulk of the squad is missing, and then never plays again.

    He washes out this year early from his contract, despite signing a 2 year extension in Jan 2022, at the age of 24. It's the job of coaches to turn raw athletes like this guy into players, but for too long Munster have a poor return in this respect. He's supposedly signing for Ulster for next season.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s

    If you can’t understand that very **** simple point, its because you find it hard to refute it.

    Leinster have better players but that’s not the reason they play younger apparently. Actually Munster are letting a ton of elite guys die on the vine through lack of development. Rowntree is in practices and deciding not to play good players because they are too young.

    You are concern trolling.

    Edit: Leinster dominate every underage squad. That’s BEFORE they are in the leinster academy usually. But the reason their players play young is unrelated to the quality of their players? Make it make sense.

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]

    It’s genuinely difficult to follow your childish stream of consciousness posting style.

    Of course I think Leinster have excellent talent in their academy, but in scenarios where Leinster are caught in a particular position, like hooker this season, they back the academy player to fill the gap, like John McKee, who has played multiple times this year for Leinster in Europe and the league.

    When Munster find themselves similarly tight, like next season at both half back positions it seems, the immediate response from Munster fans on here is to call for an NIQ player, no suggestion that Butler or Oliver or Coughlan could step up.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s

    Source on them calling for an NIQ player? You’ve said that a few times. Munster have like two NIQs. It doesn’t seem they are doing much calling for NIQ players.

    Yes, talented players would play earlier. Well done for understanding that.

    When Munster have been down in their depth chart due to injuries this year, they have played young players. They were more than happy to play Edogbo when fit for example.

    On the French thing, we sign a decent amount of speculative players. I like that policy but i wouldn’t expect him to stick.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,882 ✭✭✭theVersatile

    How come Aitzol King has only made a single URC appearance while Patrick Campbell, who is a month younger, has already made multiple champions cup appearances and is already in double digit appearances for Munster?

    How come Edwin Edogbo has become a mainstay in the Munster team and would likely be double-digit capped this year barring injury - when players like O'Tughernaigh and Mangan are only given throwaway appearances in South Africa when its time to bring out the D team?

    You can cherry pick examples of players like French who aren't good enough from any province. How come Mark Hernan, a guy who started openside in every (I believe) U20 6N game that year, didn't flourish and become a great player under the incredible tutilege of the Leinster Academy?

    That's a terrible arguement ofcourse, but so is the French one. You've mentioned him before in this thread (or someone did anyways, but I believe it was yourself), and both times it's been called out as a deranged take.

    If Leinster love backing young players so much, why did they sign Ngatai ahead of Osborne? Or Jenkins ahead of Deeny? Or Alalatoa instead of Boyle - one of the hottest U20 prospects we've had in years?

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s

    Yea the most realistic reason why a guy doesn’t play is that they aren’t good or have one glaring weakness. Why would we assume otherwise?

    Its also as simple as if leinster had as many must win games as munster this year, would they have played young guys as much. The answer is no and its obviously no.

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n

    Flannery was only on the tour due to Frawley being injured. It was a case of who is left to send. For both Leinster and Connacht Hawkshaw has made more appearances 12/10. Than Flannery has 6/4. Which would suggest he was higher rated by both provinces.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s

    It would suggest he isn’t as highly rated by the irfu.

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,157 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl

    Munster 100% need an emergency signing at 9. They will be out their two first choice 9s for several weeks and their third choice is now injured.

    There is a time to rely on your academy to step up, but that is different from being completely dependent on them.

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,633 ✭✭✭✭phog

    I think you'll find it was you that mentioned buying in cover.

    "and the fact that they will now need to spend money on a replacement in all likelihood."

    Munster have two home produced scrumhalfs heading to the RWC, it's a bit rich to be lectured by fans from other provinces about our lack of success in bringing froward players especially when it's a scrumhalf cover we're currently discussing

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭Dubinusa

    You're right! It is fair. They should be backing Coughlin.

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭Dubinusa

    Leinster gave Tector a little time. He's going to be pushing for more come autumn. Prendergast will play some more next year too. At not adding much to the budget! Savings sir? "YES PLEASE". Ka ching.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s

    Who at Munster said they should sign like 3 more NIQs? Even then that would be 5, which is one more than connacht and ulster.

    So, its like he just made something up and the thing he made up is not even that crazy lol. Oh no, 5 NIQS!

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭Dubinusa

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s

    Its going to be interesting to see what happens there. I feel like Tector will prob be odd man out.

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,052 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s

    I think with Butler there were very few games from the outside where munster didn’t need a result. Last year, there might be an argument.

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭Dubinusa

    You do realize that C. O. T isn't in the academy yet. As far as King goes there's a lad ahead of him that scored 10 tries this year. King's time will come. Hernan retired through injury and Mangan is injured these past 2 months.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,973 ✭✭✭Dubinusa