Any explicable reason why Judge Martin Nolan isn't under greater scrutiny by media + the state?

https://twitter.com/GardaWatch/status/1648774488060731392

It's one questionable ruling after the other.

No justice system is perfect, the Irish system is no exception.

That being said until recently, we would not have been considered a particularly densely populated state so incompetent policy/bills/legislation and law enforcement almost certainly hasn't received the exposure it deserved.

That's changing though, population soaring (immigration), dramatic ethnic diversification.

With all that being said, is someone like Martin Nolan a microcosm of the Irish justice and law enforcement framework integrity, or is there any explicable rationale why he's not receiving greater scrutiny?

NattyO

There's a view among the Irish media and politicos that the judiciary is a kind of quasi-religious sect, whose pronouncements are beyond criticism.

Nolan has made some very strange decisions over the years, especially when it comes to child abuse. In any other country or walk of life, he would be under intense scrutiny.

TomTomTim

It's hard to remove judges in Ireland, his shoddy rulings certainly don't meet the bar for removal, so it's likely a wasted conversation.

timmyntc

Because of the separation of powers, the judiciary are a law unto themselves (no pun intended)

These types of rulings and sentences *should* be subject to review and heavy scrutiny, but arent. We can only hope Judge Nolan takes early retirement.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120519504#Comment_120519504

I’ve seen in the UK the Government has intervened when they believe sentences extremely lenient (or harsh). Have we the same mechanic here or is it a different set up.

Allinall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120519560#Comment_120519560

The state can appeal a sentence if they think it’s too light.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120519571#Comment_120519571

Ok I’ve never heard about it happening when have several times in the UK, might have missed it though. Does the government have the balls to intervene here?

Eurox6

He seems to have a thing for letting sex offenders away with very lightly ,

Iv always wondered why there isn't more outrage,

corks finest

Nolan's a 🤡

Problem is he's accountable to no one

Otherwise his up n down sentencing wouldn't be allowed to go on.

Bigger problem is there's simply not enough prison spaces

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120519590#Comment_120519590

Its not particularly uncommon here

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/rise-in-dpp-appeals-against-leniency-of-prison-terms-1.3287447

Quite a few of them would be against Nolan sentences. However, some of why we hear so much from him has to do with the specific role/court he's in; which the Chief Justice could move him from easily.

He's an ex-Garda, which is exceptionally odd for a judge.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120519504#Comment_120519504

Yeah but this was a political determination.

It's not like it's encoded into the laws of physics.

Surely that policy could simply be revisited and revised?

The ruling in the link is nothing short of criminal itself.

JMNolan

Ye're all cheeky pups you know.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120520331#Comment_120520331

What are you gonna do, give us a suspended sentence?

L1011

Judicial retirement age is 70. He was at least 18 in 1979 (to join the Guards), so is at least 62 now; so we only have 8 years max left at least.

Hellrazer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120519504#Comment_120519504

We can only hope Judge Nolan takes early retirement.

Or ends up a victim of one of those criminals that he gave a suspended sentence to when they should have been locked up and the key thrown away.

Retirements too good for him.

JMNolan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120520372#Comment_120520372

Ever import any garlic?

Podge_irl

As long as he is following legal requirements in the sentencing its a pretty difficult one to approach. There are very valid reasons why the legislature is not supposed to interfere in the judiciary. Carving out scenarios where it is justified and makes sense is not a straightforward endeavour and fairly open to abuse.

Equally though I'm not thrilled about him continuing on it has to be said.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120520388#Comment_120520388

He’s 63.

also jaysus never googled his name before but the petitions etc to have him removed from his job (and the sheer amount of sex offenders he’s let off easy, way, way too easy) would suggest an obvious one to deal with but.. nada.

In that article @L1011 linked, this quote struck me tbh.

That same month, the mother of a juvenile sentenced to six years for a violent burglary screamed at the judge that he had earlier handed down a lighter sentence to a child abuser.

As she was arrested for contempt and was being escorted to the cells, the woman shouted to Judge Nolan that he "gave a pervert four years for raping children".

A pedophile got a less severe punishment than a juvenile and his upset mother.. makes sense?

thegame983

The media only care about 'hate' crimes.

Gusser09

His sentencing is disgusting. As much as id hate to have my house burgled id prefer that over one of my relatives being raped. However he seems to think burglary should carry a more hefty sentence than rape and molestation.

I've followed a few of his cases, couldn't believe the sentencing of some of them. Something very fishy for sure.

seenitall

Perhaps he’s one of those twisted people who are very circumspect about victims of crime such as rape or assault and would rather believe the victim must have been “asking for it” in some manner, than that the perp is evil. Which would lead me to imagine what kind of stuff must be going on in such a person’s mind…….. but I’m not a psychologist. (Given this, I find it awful he used to be a Garda.)

We had one of those posting quite recently on boards, maybe he’s still around.

Varik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120520508#Comment_120520508

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30545487.html

He gave the 17 year old the literal minimum he could with all he did at 6 years. He and his friends held a couple hostage for hours at knife point under the additional threat of raping the girl so the lad could take money out of the ATM multiple times as there was a daily limit.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30545485.html

The pedo actually got more than you'd expect as Nolan sentenced him to serve the sentences consecutively rather than the normal concurrent sentences Irish judges love to hand out. 8 years with 4 suspended. If they'd been concurrent it'd have been even shorter.

Last thing we need is another one of these types of judges in Ireland.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/artsandculture/arid-40194723.html#:~:text=Se%C3%A1n%20Cox%20with%20wife%20Martina,a%20Champions%20League%20semi%2Dfinal.

Assailants of Sean Cox (who was left paralyzed in an unprovoked assault) were free in 14 months.

.......

Justice?

There is none.

No repeat of that in Ireland plz.

The assault Nolan was responsible for presiding over was just as malicious in intent and the sentence itself was similar.

The assailants in the case of Sean Cox ultimately only served 14 of a lengthier sentence.

Jequ0n

Thank god there is a new thread to bemoan sentences. So different to all the others

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120520954#Comment_120520954

you can't introduce facts into a thread like this.

I.am.Putins.raging.bile.duct

https://www.change.org/p/minister-for-justice-judge-martin-nolan-resignation?signed=true

Varik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120522448#Comment_120522448

Amounts to just a rounding error.

He still gave each case the minimum he could legally per crime

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120522595#Comment_120522595

there isn't enough information in the article about the sexual abuse to determine that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120520954#Comment_120520954

I am not saying one should have gotten less than the other. I am saying the sentence does not fit the crime imo.

This is two cases anyway, there’s a clear pattern of piss taking from JMN.

SEPT 23 1989

It puts more value on money than violence on children and women

twisted individual

Potential-Monke

This. This is why it's so hard to get rid of a Judge, basically protected by legislation:

Who can complain?

Complaints about the conduct of a judge can be made to the Judicial Council. You cannot complain to the Judicial Council about the outcome of your case. You can complain to the Judicial Council if you are any of the following:

You were directly affected by the alleged misconduct

You witnessed the alleged misconduct

You are a parent or guardian of a child, or you are authorised to act on behalf of an incapacitated person

An authorised officer of the Bar Council of Ireland (for barristers) or the Law Society of Ireland (for solicitors) can make a complaint on behalf of a barrister or solicitor.

Time limits for complaints

You must make the complaint within 3 months of the alleged misconduct. The time limit may be extended if the Judicial Council decides that there are good reasons for doing so.

3 months? Why only 3 months? Statute law has 6 months. Because "f^3k you I'm a Judge", that's why. Good to see that petition is only 3.5k signatures away from 50k, making it one of the most popular current petitions. It'll go nowhere though because it doesn't look like there's a proper complaints procedure open for people, only individual incidents which have a 3 month time limit and you basically need to be part of the case to make the complaint. Madness. I would like to say Karma has a way with these, and indeed there was a Judge in Waterford who was quite soft on sentencing, until he was attacked. I believe he caused a spike in over-sentencing appeals thereafter.

Large bottle small glass

The problem is the appointment process and training( or lack thereof)

Currently if you or not involved in FG/FF/GP you are not getting on the bench.

Once you are on the bench, there is no guarantee that you will work in a field that you practiced in.

Given the effect court judgements have on people's lives be it Civil, family, criminal, commercial etc when need to get serious about the appointment process to recruit and train the best suited to the job.

I've been involved in court work for 25 yrs and it is very rarely the brightest and best that make the bench but more often mediocre barrister looking for the slow lane.

In Martin Nolan's case, it's important once he is a judge that there is no political interference in his rulings, but some type of judicial oversight/guidance might be appropriate.

There is also the higher appeal court for the DPP

mohawk

In Martin Nolan's case, it's important once he is a judge that there is no political interference in his rulings, but some type of judicial oversight/guidance might be appropriate.

i agree totally. You can’t have a legal system that can be interfered with by politicians. Elections are one way we hold politicians to account…how do we hold judges to account? There has to be some way to allow us to improve the system.

Hotblack Desiato

The DPP needs to appeal these sort of lenient sentences more often.

Concurrent sentencing should only be allowed in exceptional cases.

And we really need to build an additional large prison not add a few beds here and there.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120525758#Comment_120525758

Honestly I don’t understand why there hasn’t already been a prison built. The same reason for people not being sent to prison is there’s no space but then there seems to be nothing done about it? 🤔

Potential-Monke

Because building a prison costs money, which they would have to divert from other areas that the voters are affected by. So no one has the balls to tell the public that you can't keep getting everything for free and we want to lock up criminals.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120525602#Comment_120525602

I read on twitter McEntee had introduced a method/system to raise concern with what were considered negligent judicial outcomes?

I haven't seen it put to great effect just yet, but I saw that a few months ago.

And yes, there must be some kind of system where judicial rulings can be more intensely scrutinized.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120526231#Comment_120526231

Building a new prison would ease the housing crisis a bit 😉

Potential-Monke

I'm all for it. Build 2!

Or politicians could re-examine legislation criminalizing homeless drug addicts to free up space for actual violent criminals:

https://twitter.com/TweeterReynolds/status/1649035448830787584

None the less there is consideration to building another prison, apparently:

https://twitter.com/NewstalkFM/status/1652045242839736329

tesla_newbie

The Irish media are overwhelmingly left wing , left wingers tend not to be in favour of stiff sentences ( unless it’s for misgendering etc ) so Judge Nolan’s lenient philosophy doesn’t really catch their attention

Potential-Monke

If the majority are from addiction/poverty, and a new prison makes more sense than "upgrading" the joy, then maybe we should build a prisoner soley for people who addition/poverty issues, make it a treatment prison, and keep the joy and it's "inhumane" conditions for the hardened criminals, the proper scumbags, murders, rapists, etc. Seems like a no brainer to me...

I also agree with decriminalising drug use. But with that we need the proper treatment for addictions. So I'll say it again. Legalise cannabis, tax it so that it's still cheaper than black market and direct 100% of those taxes to building/staffing/maintaining drug treatment facilities. It's a win/win imo. If priced properly, the tax take will quickly outgrow the expenditure needed and can then be funnelled elsewhere.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120523851#Comment_120523851

In any of the cases you’re alluding to did the judge violate the sentencing guidelines set forth in the law by the legislature and signed into being by the executive?

Yurt2

Leaving aside the judge in question for the moment, there's the inconvenient fact that our prison system is now at overflow capacity. It's all well and good sating public demand for heavier sentances, but if there's nowhere to put them, and I think the judiciary is acutely cognisant when they sentance.

Now, many will say we need more prisons, and that might be true. Currently, our prison system is both at overflow and our largest ones from the Victorian age. They are recidivists factories. But, the Governor of Mountjoy has actually come out and said several times we should look at capping the prison population and to consider are we imprisoning the right people, and for the right amount of time. That's food for thought even if you want to call the Governor of our largest prison a Johnny softc*ck on crime.

If one takes a look at similar sized countries like Finand and Norway, their prison population is under 3k in both instances, we're heading towards 5k and coudl well breach that number next year. But what is notable about both Nor. and Finland is that their recidivism rate is markedly lower. That could partly be chalked up to societal reasons (both countries have a lot of sh*tty people as well believe it or not), but also if we're to be frank, because their focus is on reducing recidivism above all things - and the conditions are built around rehabilitation and reintroduction to society.

That's going to be massively unpopular in certain quarters, and I realise there is an unlimited appetite among many for the maximum sentance to be applied in the worst possible conditions when they read newspaper headlines on Facebook. It's also a multi-billion euro project if we're to be serious about reorientating the prison system towards preventing further criminal behaviour - also something Irish people are unlikely to have an appetite for.

The other alternative is leave things as they are, roll the dice and hope for the best that the people going into our prisons don't become worse people than when they went in. Even the notion of building bigger prisons in the hope it will magically work doesn't seem to wash. If simply imprisoning more people for longer worked, the US would be a crime-free paradise. All the evidence points towards super-prisons being crime factories however. New York State is moving towards shutting down Rikers Island because it's such a mess and an advanced finishing school for criminal behaviour.

This site is interesting to cross-compare rates of imprisonment and other related stats versus other European countries. We imprison at a rate of 90 people per 100k of population. Factoring in that our remand/pre-trial detainees are generally a lower part of the prison population than others (similar to the UK) - along with the UK, we tend to imprison people more than other Western European countries, but less than Eastern Europe which tend to have significantly higher rates of incarceration.

https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/ireland-republic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120544696#Comment_120544696

less than Eastern Europe which tend to have significantly higher rates of incarceration.

Yeah that's not exactly an endorsement.

Eastern Europe is basically the gangster-flank of the block.

There's been umpteen calls for preventative policing, but the fact that AGS is trending toward losing upward of 500 staff this year alone doesn't bode well for policing of any orientation.

A lot of debate in relation to both the political and Commissioners agenda, what the ideals the former are trying to accomplish with their open-border policy, and the latter is trying to accomplish with his sideways roster protocol.

And re idealism, politicians should absolutely be hauled over the coals for some bill, and lack of bill passing.

Drug reform policy, if it's proven to potentially genuinely affect prison numbers, should be top of the list.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120526231#Comment_120526231

Yes, but look at what money is being spent by our government on things that don’t benefit a single Irish person.

yet stuff we do need like extra prison places… nothing…

as the population explodes we are in big trouble without proper and responsible investment in infrastructure like prisons.

Lionel Fusco

The facts are of course that Nolan's sentencing is largely in line with the guidelines if it wasn't his sentences would be appealed more often also Judge Nolan gets the majority of criminal cases hence why it seems his sentences are lighter when in fact they aren't.