Telescopic baton law?

Iopu

I ordered one on wish . com for the craic mostly. Advertised as a telescopic hiking stick. Now that it's arrived its actually pretty legit. I'm not intending to take it outside but am I OK to keep it? Or is it classified as an offensive weapon and needs to be deposed? Thanks.

hullaballoo

The offensive weapons legislation is actually quite sensible in that it's driven by the context. Along the lines of if you have a reasonable excuse that isn't to bludgeon another person, then it can be a defence.

If it's kept in the home as an ornament, that might be a defence. I would wonder though what it's value is as an ornament. AGS might wonder the same thing.

It's not without risk keeping it - if it was me I would dispose of it to avoid anyone asking me questions but I'd have no interest in owning one in the first place so you might assess the risk differently.

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058293289/telescopic-baton-law

It would most likely be classed as an offensive weapon yes.

That being said, if you’re not going to be carrying it around outside and just leaving it in a drawer or something as a curiosity what harm? Unless you think your house likely to be raided by the Gardaí I don’t see any problem

Iopu

Thanks for the replies it's been dismantled and disposed of.

Period Hotspod

There is a shop in caple street that sells them.

kowloon

You're not allowed import them at all afaik. Same goes for Flick-knives, Katars, Machetes, sword-sticks and shuriken. Someone took the ninja craze of the 80s a little too seriously. There also seems to be a bit of a Japan fetish going on because you can have a scimitar, a talwar, any European sword but katanas are not allowed unless they're traditionally made or pre=1954.

hullaballoo

It would be an interesting case though in light of the developments since the legislation was enacted. Importation has very different connotations imo to what the OP did. Did he import a telescopic baton? I'm not so sure the circumstances fit the legislative intent tbh.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120515904#Comment_120515904

Importation has very different connotations imo to what the OP did

In what way is it different? he ordered the item from a foreign country and had it delivered to ireland.

Kimbot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120517984#Comment_120517984

But what he ordered was a "telescopic walking stick", if the OP uses to assist with walking then I would see no issue but god only knows what way the guards would take it.

hullaballoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120517984#Comment_120517984

I think he bought something online as a consumer. To me, the context now is very different to what the legislation intends to cover. It's clearly intended to be a restriction on commercial supply and sale of weapons. I think a very narrow reading of the legislation as you have set out would be very unjust in the circumstances.

Hotblack Desiato

If I order something from outside the State to be delivered to me within the State, I am importing that thing.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120518405#Comment_120518405

Can you point to anything at all in the offensive weapons legislation, or even in the "context" of that legislation, to suggest that its restrictions on importing apply only to commercial imports, and that there is some kind of exception for consumer imports that are ordered online?

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120518087#Comment_120518087

In theory, a hurley could be used as an offensive weapon.

artanevilla

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120521915#Comment_120521915

Context is everything. If you are on a hurling pitch at 3pm on a Saturday bating sliotars, it's not an offensive weapon. If you still have at at 3am outside of the pub on the main street swinging it around it's a weapon.

Hard to argue a baton is used for sports even if it's sold as a 'walking stick', same as it would be hard to argue you carry a ninja star around to gut fish.

kowloon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120521915#Comment_120521915

But it's not classified as one in the legislation. The law is funny and is not based on common sense: A paintball marker is a firearm in Irish legislation.

hullaballoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120521653#Comment_120521653

Yes, the legislation itself provides the context. If you read section 12 from start to finish, it is clearly directed at commercial offerings of offensive weapons. That is the section under which the Ministerial Order was made explicitly prohibiting the importation of telescopic batons:

"Power to prohibit manufacture, importation, sale, hire or loan of offensive weapons.

12.—(1) Any person who—

(a) manufactures, sells or hires, or offers or exposes for sale or hire, or by way of business repairs or modifies, or

(b) has in his possession for the purpose of sale or hire or for the purpose of repair or modification by way of business, or

(c) puts on display, or lends or gives to any other person,

a weapon to which this section applies shall be guilty of an offence.

(2) Where an offence under subsection (1) is committed by a body corporate and is proved to have been so committed with the consent or connivance of or to be attributable to any neglect on the part of a director, manager, secretary or other officer of the body corporate, the director, manager, secretary or other officer or any person purporting to act in such capacity shall also be guilty of an offence.

[...] (6)  The importation of a weapon to which this section applies is hereby prohibited."

In any event, it does not appear that this section creates an offence for the importation of these weapons. The offences are specified in subsection (1) but there is no indication on the face of the section what the consequences are where someone imports a weapon to which section 12 applies.

Peregrinus

Mmm. S.12(1) contains words explicitly limiting its scope to business activities. S.12(6) prohibits importation, with no language limiting its scope to business activities. I think the omission is deliberate, and for two reasons. First, prohibitions on import are enforced at the border. It's not possible to tell from examining a package in transit whether the importer intends subsquently to sell or hire the contents, or simply use them himself, so a prohibition on import of weapons for commercial purposes would be, in effect, unenforceable. Secondly, and more to the point, the object of the s.12(1) prohibition on sale is, of course, to prevent people acquiring weapons. Why, then, would you want a law that allows people to acquire them by import? It makes no sense.

As for the offence, Customs Act 2015 s.14(1)(c) makes it an offence to "import into the State any goods contrary to any prohibition or restriction on importation of those goods". So, reading the two provisions together, importing a weapon contrary to s. 12(6) is an offence. (And in fact that's explicitly acknowledged in s. 15 of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act.)

hullaballoo

It's well established you don't sever subsections of a statute as if they are independent objects. Section 12(6) is to be read in the context of the rest of section 12, which as above is clearly intended to restrict commercial activities in relation to these items.

Section 15 does nothing to remedy the problem with section 12(6) from your perspective, other than look like section 12 was a drafting error.

Section 14 of the Customs Act 2015 does on first reading appear to fix the problem but in circumstances where innocence is at stake I don't think it's sufficiently clear from the statute book that this section 12(6) prohibition gives rise to a criminal offence.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120531058#Comment_120531058

No. It's Customs Act 2015 s. 14 that gives rise to the criminal offence. Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act s. 15 recognises that it does, but even without that provision I think Customs Act s. 14 is quite clear.

As for reading the "for business purposes" language from s. 12(1) into s. 12(6), I still think that produces a bizarre result that undermines the clear policy object of s. 12(1), which is that people in Ireland should not be able to buy weapons to which s. 12 applies. It defines common sense to suggest that the legislative intention of s. 12(6) is that, though they cannot buy them from Irish retailers, they are free to buy them from foreign retailers and import them.