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If the Famine had not happened in Ireland in the 1840s what do you think the country would be like?

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  • 17-04-2023 9:00am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 15,808 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    What do you think the Country would be like today?

    Would the population be double what it is now?

    Would going to the shops or buying a new or second hand vehicle be cheaper?

    Would we be more like Belgium or the UK?

    Would we be one Country or still divided as it is today?

    Would the 1916 Easter rising and war of Independence being much different with a bigger opposing force and our Civil war have been much bloodied?

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



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Comments

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,157 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Impossible to tell. What is undeniably true was that the country's population growth was permanently retarded by the famine. It was 8.5 million before the blight hit. A million died and another million emigrated, triggering a wave of emigration that would endure for several decades.


    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,864 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    There would be no Fields of Athenry.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,638 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Those maps paint such a stark picture. Whatever about pictures being worth a 1000 words, those maps in sequence? Devastation and exodus.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,157 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I f*cking love maps.

    It's possible that an Ireland that never experienced the famine would still be part of the UK. We've no idea how things might have panned out culturally or economically.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,690 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    The population of the island of Ireland is now just over 7 million. I'd quite like to see 2023 maps included in the above as they'd be quite a way on from 2002 where the population was 5.5 million.

    Post edited by o1s1n on


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,157 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,690 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    That's one funky looking map!

    Shame we cant see it using the same scale as those blue maps, 2022 shouldn't look too far off the 1841 map now. We're 82% of the way back to pre famine numbers. So certainly getting there.

    It's interesting to wonder how we'd be without the famine though. We were almost half the UK population which sat at 18 million.

    They are currently 67 million now. If we were half that we'd be a whopping 33.5 million. Hard to imagine!



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    The then population, to use that overused word, was unsustainable.

    Land subdivision couldn't go on forever, people couldn't go on living from hand to mouth in mud hovels, something would have had to give sometime. There may have been a slow-burn famine when food shortages rather than an overall crop failure began to bite. Relief works and assisted emigration like the Highland Clearances happening when landlords could make more out of cattle or sheep rather than tenants.

    I don't see the pre Famine population as any sort of target we need to aspire to now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭Bob the Seducer


    To claim that the pre famine population of Ireland was unsustainable is something of a fallacy, what was unsustainable was the was of life imposed on the Irish by the landlord system. The majority of tenant farms were small - mostly under 15 acres, with a significant number under 5 acres, hence the over reliance on the potato crop for food (as it was the one thing you could grow enough of on a small plot of land). Other lands were being used to grow cash crops of grain for export (crops that required significant effort to turn into usable food).

    With our current population, we're frequently at or near the top of the global Food Security Index and a figure often quoted is that we produce enough food to feed 40-45 million. There are plenty of countries with far higher population density than ours that seem to be managing just fine.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,744 ✭✭✭✭cj maxx


    This is a bug bear of mine . There never was a famine on Ireland . A famine is a shortage of food . There was more than enough food for the population of around 8 million . In fact exports of food to England increased in the 1840’ s as the blight took hold as recorded in Dublin port records . Of course to call them exports is a bit disingenuous . Food such as grain , beef , lamb and pork and horses and yes potatoes were and taken under under British army escort to Dublin port and loaded onto ships to Liverpool and other English ports . The blight also hit the Scottish highlands and western Isles but England provided much more relief to the Albanach as by and large they were more subjugated. . When Turkey offered money for relief it caused a diplomatic row between England and them as I think they may have offered up to 10 million pounds of relief compared to Englands 1 million. ( numbers might not be accurate but the point remains the same ) . The so called Great Hunger was a policy of Genocide by the English government rather than just a natural calamity . It was the inspiration for Hitlers living room policy where he targeted the vast Polish grain supply and exported it back to Germany. The East India company , a branch of the fascist Empire caused a ‘famine’ in India killing around 165 million people according to the book ‘ Inglorious Empire.

    So to my mind , if that hadn’t of happened we would be , and happy to be , a ‘country’ of the uk waving union jacks for Charlies coronation.

    A NYT article for subscribers

    https://www.nytimes.com/1995/02/24/opinion/l-irish-potato-famine-didn-t-just-happen-487995.html#:~:text=The%20%22famine%22%20ended%20in%201849,2.5%20million%2C%20to%206.5%20million.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,157 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Using the famine as a way to spout drivel like this is just disingenuous and highly disrespectful to the hundreds of thousands who died.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,744 ✭✭✭✭cj maxx


    How exactly ? It’s not drivel or a anti-English rant . It’s history , backed up by historical documents. Just because you’re ignorant of it doesn’t make it not happen . I’d suggest before you start calling someone a bull-shitter you actually KNOW what you’re talking about.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,157 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    You posted Anglophobic drivel without a single source and finished with a linkdump.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,744 ✭✭✭✭cj maxx


    As I said in my PM , find your own resources. The Custom House is a good starting point



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,852 ✭✭✭RoTelly


    You'd have also had to industrialize the country. The famine is only the tipping point of de-population. There are other factors to consider.


    ______

    Just one more thing .... when did they return that car

    Yesterday



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,157 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,690 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    A genocide is 'the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.'

    The UK's inadequate response to the potato blight was not a 'deliberate killing of'. If anything it was just severe neglect and indifference. Those two things are not the same.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,157 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I think we can be confident that Irish soft power would be a shadow of what it is without the Irish disapora advocating for us abroad.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,690 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    That's actually a really interesting angle I never considered, has to make you then wonder what the landscape in the US would look like without that Irish diaspora.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    This 'not a famine' stuff was cooked up in the US and only lately has its adherents here, usually the sort of people who rely on memes for info and don't crack open a book too often.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,157 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    The British Empire was the largest and most powerful empire that has ever existed. If they wanted to exterminate the natives of a small island in the eastern Atlantic, nobody would have stopped them. The Irish had no friends after the defeat of Napoleonic France. It's why the genocide theory falls apart IMO.

    Indeed. It opens up a whole lot of interesting questions. Would there even be an independent Irish republic I wonder?

    Post edited by ancapailldorcha on

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    If anything the world needs less humans, not more.

    Oh yeah funny how we can't house and look after the people we have already, must be the Brits fault.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,744 ✭✭✭✭cj maxx


    Sending your army to provide armed protection for food exports to your own country from one facing starvation , is a deliberate act , at any time. To try and infer that that was the way things were done back then is rubbish. As I’ve said , the paperwork is there . It’s not something I’ve just invented . But to get back to the original post , if there wasn’t the great hunger, we’d be a happy British country of the uk



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,817 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    The various famines and it wasn't just one event had a profound effect on land ownership and inheritance. One of the drivers in the late 18th and early 19th centuries seems to have been the policy of absorbing the growth within the existing land management practices. So a type of rundale was common where strips of land were allocated from year to year, you had in farms and out farms - mountain lands for booleying during summer months. But this had it's limits and couldn't indefinitely absorb expansion of population. As the 19th century wore on and with the various land acts, this changed towards the eldest son being passed on land and the rest could feck off. Daughters were for marrying off and if possible to lads (of any age) with land.

    Emigration was always going to feature. I know from looking at my own family history that many were emigrating in the early 1800s, well before the 'famine' periods.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,274 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Jeysus Tipperary took some battering. You always hear about the Connacht counties and Clare but there are some surprisingly high populations like Tipp and Tyrone.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,193 ✭✭✭Packrat


    Whilst I agree with what you're trying to get across ie: some people try to make the misery worse for their own ends, there are ships manifests freely available online to indicate the level of food export right throughout the period, and the quantities are truly staggering.

    No serious historian purports to it having been a genocide, more of a happy coincidence to some - and again there is plenty documented evidence of this.

    Certainly, Some Irish people and classes benefitted from the misery and deaths of others. As did some English.

    Like almost everything else the truth lies in the grey areas.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,274 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    We would have a little bit more hard power though with a Dutch or Belgian size population.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,157 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Even my native Donegal took a serious battering...

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,763 ✭✭✭growleaves


    Not true.

    John Mitchel, who lived through the Famine in Co. Down, was the first person to say it.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,157 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    A fair point but without allies and given our geographical position, we'd still be easy prey for the Brits. I can envision something like a Habsburg monarch style solution involving limited autonomy via Home Rule as a solution.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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