Beef Farming- Are you full time/part time?

mr.stonewall

Following on from an idea on the Suckler Scep thread. It would be interesting to get a snap shop of where our industry is going. The votes are anonymous

Itryhard

I think another interesting poll would be how many farmers are loss making each year - per there end of year accounts...

Packrat

No option for off farm work plus another farm enterprise, which would describe many people with sheep as well.

mr.stonewall

With the quick snapshot it's next to near impossible to get a slot for everyone.

The results so far are about more shocking than I thought. But it's a reflection of where the beef sector is.

The big question how do we get more farmers being fulltime in beef. Is it a matter of just bigger numbers and acres and if so where do we land at?

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120484598#Comment_120484598

Why would we want more fulltime beef farmers? Why is this better?

Diversity of income is great so that in a bad year (3.50 kg of beef or you get your hours cut in the off farm) that you can fall back on the other income.

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120484623#Comment_120484623

Having an industry based on part timers, is that good either. By the way I'm part time.

Its a question we all have to look at

emaherx

Part time here, the farm has always been part time. Dad milked 20-30 cows and kept another 20 sucklers through the 80's and 90's but he had an off farm job too, he increased suclker and drystock numers after he retired from the day job but stopped milking. I wouldn't fancy milking any number of cows on a part time basis myself.

I've been keeping just a suckler herd, I was working full time for a large multinational tech company, but I took a decent redundancy package when it was offered and paid it off the mortgage, now I work part time off farm for a farm software company, think that's as close to full time farming as I will get (unless I win the lotto 😁). I plan on selling sucklers at end of year and buying calves in the spring.

Cavanjack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120484598#Comment_120484598

I think the average farm size in Ireland is round 30 hectares. The average dairy farm is closer to 60 hectares. Then you’ve tillage farms which are probably bigger than 60 hectares. This probably leaves the average beef farm at round 20-25 hectares with a vast majority of them under 20 hectares.

I wouldn’t call your results shocking. A 60 hectare finishing farm with good facilities is part time. I know a couple of lads running 80 suckler cows and they’ve full time jobs (and quiet women).

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120484598#Comment_120484598

The reality is the beef farming is not a full time job on most farms. With a reasonable set up, most people would do their work in a 10-20 hour per week window and therefore unless they’re into day time tv, they will want to work full time.

of course the bigger picture is the financial one. Ya simply won’t survive and pay rhe bills on a beef farm without off farm job.

Anto_Meath

You would need at least 100 acres of good owned land to make a living to be a full time farmer. If the 100 acres was in 1 block then dairy is route to go, a lot of work but a guaranteed pay cheque every month. If the 100 acres is dived over 4 -5 blocks then you could run a good beef farm and make a living. Any more blocks then it would just be hassle you would spend more time traveling between them than actually doing anything productive.

K.G.

I m just curious is there any non suckler fulltime beef farmer.

farawaygrass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120486691#Comment_120486691

You reckon? Id say at 100 acres it’d still be very tight at beef

Anto_Meath

@farawaygrass it would depend on your system, but if you could have on average 15 cattle a month to sell with about €175 for your pocket plus the cheque in the post at the end of the year then you would be doing OK.

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120486456#Comment_120486456

Calving 80 sucklers in a fairly compact calving system is a full time job by itself unless you want dead cows and calves. What full time job do these lads have? is the auld lad at home jacking calves or are they running home from the full time job?

Around here the lads with 20-30 sucklers and a “full time” job are usually self employed tradesmen who can watch the camera and drop everything and head home to help a cow or work in the local Co op and are given a bit of flexibility with time if they have to head home.

Siamsa Sessions

My tuppence worth since I'm looking into options at the moment that might allow me to become a full-time farmer...

For non-suckler beef on 100 acres you need plenty sheds and slurry storage, and as many paddocks as a dairy farm if you were to do it right. Assuming it's good land, and all in 1-2 blocks, you'd finish 90-100 cattle per year. If you're buying them as weanlings, that's another 90-100 animals to look after. Maybe 110-120 if you're inclined to push it.

There'd be nearly as much work with that as with milking 50-60 cows.

Anto_Meath

@tanko they could all be feeding their cows in the morning so that the cows calf at night then when they are all at home...

No but you are right, I have 20 suckler cows and the brother has similar, he does shift work and I work from home any day he is in on shift at this time of year, that way we can assist one another if a cow is in bother. Happens rarely as we both use easy calving LM for this very reason. But only for there is some bit of cover around I can guarantee there would be no cows on either farm.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120486691#Comment_120486691

The kind of people that farmers are they don’t want to be idle.

Plenty of lads milking with jobs as well.

Say a family farm with a parent / child or husband / wife. There is scope in that set up for one or both to be working as long as the schedules work.

Cavanjack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120487106#Comment_120487106

Yeah one is a self employed plumber, the other works shift. The plumber can drop all anytime he wants. The shift worker takes time off in the spring but does have lads in to help too.

Anto_Meath

@[Deleted User] I would say there is very few farms of any type in the country that there isn't a second income coming into the home, be it the husband or wife work off farm and it is that way a long time. I remember years a ago an old farmer who was after spending some time in Navan hospital telling my father that there wasn't a nurse in it who hadn't wellie marks on her legs.. I had to get my father to explain what the old farmer meant to me.. Many farmers also have other little enterprise running like hacking cattle to the local mart for lads, or monitoring the local river for the inland fisheries, reading ESB meters, doing Bord Bia audits or odd days with the farm relief.

farawaygrass

What other little enterprises are doable for a dry stock farmer, preferably ones which you can do on the farm. I often thought about a small firewood business as one. Can’t think of others at the top of my head

Cavanjack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120487922#Comment_120487922

A great one I always if you lived near a big town is house maintenance. Clean gutters, power wash cut grass. You’d have a tractor, trailer ibc’s, power washer. No big outlay. All cash and a great demand for this sort of work. Also very easy to work your day around the farm.

Grueller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120486456#Comment_120486456

I wore that 80 cow suckler hers and full time job t-shirt for 10 years nearly. I now milk 70 cows and have the off farm gig cut to half hours and I am less busy. Less batches of stock make an awful difference to time spent.

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120487386#Comment_120487386

I don’t mean to be pedantic but those lads are full time farmers during calving season or they have a person available to be full time in their yard when needed. In reality they don’t have a full time job and farm part time, it’s just not that simple or easy.

farawaygrass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120488101#Comment_120488101

Ya very true. You’d think there’s no demand for jobs like this but it’s when you go looking for someone you realise lads are in very short supply

Cavanjack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120488142#Comment_120488142

Yeah it’s lunacy from what I can see. Only so long the body can last at it.

emaherx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120487684#Comment_120487684

Just like everyone else so, I'd say there are very few households rural or urban with just one income these days.

emaherx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120487106#Comment_120487106

I wasn't a self employed tradesman and managed for years, cameras and a bit of running home when necessary and/or a bit of help from family members, but most cows calved unassisted while I was at home anyway. Choice of cows and bulls made for easy calving. But I work from home now which makes things easier.

funkey_monkey

Anyone at sucklers full time here has a nice subsidy payment that brings in more than the majority of p/t are getting off farm.

ABitofsense

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120488641#Comment_120488641

Same as here. Part-time small suckler farm (16 calved/calving this year) with very good flexible job. Only way it works for me is proven LM bulls with good cows, good setup with cameras & pins, trained cows to few nuts, paddocks system so cows and calves used to being moved & handled every few days and neighbors to call on if stuck. Luckily my father still about to throw an eye on too.

It makes money and I see myself always doing sucklers. There is nothing better than walking through new calves each year and see how they turn out.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120484598#Comment_120484598

If you can manage the farm on the side then does it make sense to go full time farming?

I mean farming can be lonely. You don’t meet too many people. In a job you get a guaranteed income and paid holidays etc. Something like 40% of workers in the uk (not sure of figures here) can work from home. You could go in to the office here and there for a change of scenery or a bit of craic etc or even good coffee.

mr.stonewall

Set up and planning ahead is key. I'm part time rearing 50+ calves for beef and 25 Sucklers as well for good measure.

Simple things like a bit of focus on proven easy calving is a big help. I moved my calving to April a few years back and it has been a game changer. Compact calving is key. Focus is on cow going in calf, calving on their own and calf getting up and going. Troublesome ladies get the road. Outdoor calving in a bit of paddock marked for a bit of reseeding. Now this year has been tricky weatherwise, so adapted and let out in the morning and back in a night for grub. Pull any out near calving and put under the camera. There will always be a difficult case with some, like at the weekend I had one coming backwards. Having easy calving let's the cow go back in calf easier and breeding in late June early July means cows have a good plane of nutrition, these little things help.

By moving the calving to April, it lets the foucs in Feb and march be towards the calf rearing and getting out yearling stock. Having an empty yard or near empty yard at calving is a super help.

Facilities and your work practices of the everyday tasks are key. Being able to do your farming in a quicker, safer and less manual handling is vital. Even the job of having all the fodder in the yard for the winter is huge. Hanging gates and good lighting a must. Even the meal bin and getting it filled rather than messing with time collecting bags or half ton bags every week or 2.

Finally the tax side. For a good number of use the day job has us in the higher tax band. Therefore it is vital that we use deprecation annually to make our time spent on the farm more efficiently, we have no excuse after that is the pension or other investments. I would rank the farm investments in the following order

1. Housing

2. Fencing + water

3. Cattle handling

4. Roadways

5. Machinery and plant if needed.

When we are limited on the time spent on our farms, it's what we use daily and interact daily with is what has to get the priority for upgrading. We tend to nearly plan our days and farming activities better than most full time folks, even bringing good work practices from our experiences off farm

Finally, we all need a bit of a project on the farm that may last a few weeks or months. This helps greatly for me

Nearly there. Sunday's are a handy day here, bar calving or a bit of hay or silage down. Its herding and taking time at it, even bring the kids and just taking in all around, be it nature or seeing stock relaxed.

All this typed while watching the camera.

Update. Cow calved, up and sucking

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120489573#Comment_120489573

The thing is there is a lot of factors holding people back from being full time, be it personal (financial,career progression wellbeing, caring to others) or factors on farm ( size, fragmentation, prior investment etc)

Work from home has been a game changer, but still a large cohort will not be able to access it, due to career choice. Are we seeing the option of a 3 day week, reduced hours can help. Many part timers run there own SMEs and have other relying on them for the cheque at the end of the week.

There is only so long that many can keep burning the candle at both ends

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120489648#Comment_120489648

Docility and cows that calf themselves most of the time makes a difference with breeding stock. Obviously having hard calving bulls won’t help.

Breeding your own docile stock will reduce hardship at herding, dosing etc

The tight calving and accurate scanning detail would help anyone with breeding stock.

Lads sourcing calves in dairy beef would ideally have a good partnership with a local dairy farmer.

mr.stonewall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120489696#Comment_120489696

+ 1 for breeding your own replacements

Scanning is a must, but having serve dates is nearly more important to helping a tightening of the calving spread.

If you can buy your calves from 1 herd only it helps greatly

Fulltime farmers both beef and diary have a lot to learn from us part timers and vice versa.

mr.stonewall

Looking at the results above it lays the cold hard facts of where we have gone.

Has the number of part timers given a serious buffer to the processors and feedlots?

Has our farm orgs forgotten about the strength in numbers of part timers

What has DAFM and the advisory bodies done to support part time farmer?

Bass Reeves

IMO a hundred acres of decent land, on a well run drystock farm would give you around the average industrial wage.

National average farm payment/HA is about 260/HA( most long term drystock farmers would be a tad higher) add in Criss and ANC and you be a tad above 15k. Acres wound bring in another 3-5k net

Simple store to beef would leave a margin of 300+/ head over a 12 months finishing period. On 90-100 cattle that is 27-35k of a working margin. Total income 45-55k.

If you were fulltime you could probably make a few bob as a factory agent/ doing a bit of buying for other lads, haulage or summer contracting. As well you probably would have 50% of your own heating costs out of the farm.

I retired 3-4 years ago. I have not started to draw down my pension fund yet. The income off the farm covers all my expenses. Yes the other half works but I generally pay a lot of expenses out of the farm account( heating oil, phone, ESB, car taxes, insurance, house insurance. If I went to replace the jeep tomorrow morning the farm would pay for it. There is a land loan repayment of 11k a year out of it as well

Ya I have a couple of rental properties but the farm financed one of them. I am working off what use to be 24HA(60 acres) going for area aid. It will be gone up by 2-3 this year.

However the workload is 18-20 hours a week and would not be much more on a 100 acre farm if it was owned and on one block around the home house.

However You would manage must full time jobs with it now. WFH has probably added option of job choice to it now. If you have a decent education a lot of jobs in finance, Insurance, regulation, professional, government etc have the advantage of WFH anything from 2-3 days to virtually fulltime.

Rusheseverywhere

There is probably a sweet spot for farm size. I have over 200ac and decent direct payments over 50k. The prob is maintence etc not alone cost but time. Also I found with organic and straw beddign etc (Mix of modern hosing and ancient sheds) with some old sheds I cannot get into with loader. I waste so many hours a day messing around bedding straw cleaning etc. All about efficency but that costs money. Sucklers are a time rob, I really need to stop them like a lad with a drink problem.

A hidden down side with being full time is every lad pulls out of you as you are around and with alot of the lads it is soft talk you get and no more other lads sound out. Also can be lonely as said above easy to go a day or two and see no-one.

Dunedin

Another little caveat to full time v part time. I did one year full time about 14 years ago. I was spending way more rhan I really needed to on the farm in terms of maintenance and improvements because I had the time.

When farming part time now, I don’t have the time (but do make sure all essentials are done). and more money in my pocket at the end of the year.