Why is self-defense illegal?

slither12

It's something I always wondered. Given the state of Dublin, would it not be great for people to get permits for weapons? As much as a disagree with the likes of Jones, he's right in saying that criminals don't respect gun laws.

There is a slight reduction of crime in places in America where responsible gun owners have guns.

Fr Tod Umptious

But it's not.

A guy in Mayo a few weeks ago was cleared of murder when he killed another man in self defense.

And laws were changed over a decade ago in the aftermath of the Nally case, that gave people more rights when defending themselves and their property.

B.A._Baracus

It's not so clean cut to legally allow guns in Ireland. There'd be a lot of sh*t that would follow.

Like for every person who would buy a gun to only defend themselves you'd have someone else pulling it on another in an argument etc. Some scumbag without a criminal record yet would be able to get one etc.

buried

You can't have ordinary people taking the law into their own hands.

That job is reserved for the legal racket who take it into their own pockets.

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120474420#Comment_120474420

I remember the story I think it was the equivalent of about a 70 euro fine, it is illegal in lots of places including Ireland.

In fairness if it was legal would it not just encourage scumbags to carry it as well?

slither12

I think self defense will become a lot more acceptable when high quality CCTV cameras become more ubiquitous. Right now, a lot of assault cases are a 'he said, she said". With good footage, there'd be no doubt as to who the aggressor was.

Hangdogroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058292273/why-is-self-defense-illegal

Because this isn't America and its an idiotic suggestion.

standardg60

Self-defence is not illegal, carrying weapons for the purpose of it is, and rightly so. Is it just a co-incidence that people who carry knives tend to get into a lot of 'self-defence' situations?

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058292273/why-is-self-defense-illegal

Nobody agrees with Dick Jones.

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120474480#Comment_120474480

She wasn't...she was fined a small amount for carrying pepper spray which is/was illegal in Denmark.

As I already said if it was legal here it would give license to complete scumbags to carry it too.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120474493#Comment_120474493

It is not idiotic to suggest that women should be able to carry pepper spray or the likes to protect themselves from attack.

realdanbreen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058292273/why-is-self-defense-illegal

First of all self defence is not illegal. Secondly it is not true that crime rates are lower in states where there are more guns. Thirdly, re making more guns available, I take it you are for whatever reason completely and utterly Unaware of the major issues they are having in America with the lack of gun control. As for you feeling unsafe in Dublin, have you ever lived outside of Ireland !

Strumms

a person is allowed to use reasonable force in defending themselves and their property…

however that depends on the view of the judge as to whether they understand or want to understand the facts and what constitutes ‘reasonable’ force.

as we have learned over the last 6 or 7 years, many judges are contemptuous eejits who don’t know what they are at and are beyond out of touch with reality.

Padraig Nally vs Frog Ward is an example. Nally ended up in jail for 11 months after having been sentenced for 6 or 7 years for manslaughter.

In 2018, a Central Criminal Court jury acquitted Martin Keenan of the murder of an unarmed man he stabbed to death with a part from garden shears after finding him in his bedroom.. The man was in his bedroom yet the criminal justice system and these shithead judges want to know.. “ why didn’t you ASK him to leave “…” could you not have gently pushed him out ? “ Defence and the Dwelling Act 2011 determine you don’t….

Years ago a Garda told my Dad that if an intruder is in your living quarters ie. upstairs or in a bedroom… hes fair game, do whatever you need to ….. the same Garda told my old man, do the same downstairs but make sure we find him upstairs.

Self defence isn’t illegal just the law is weighted too heavily with the wellbeing of criminals in mind.

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120474591#Comment_120474591

Why only women?

Why not men?

Why not scumbags?

If it's legal anyone could carry it, including those who might want to do harm to people...

slither12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120474600#Comment_120474600

Yea, I used to live in a third world shithole. Ireland is definitely safer than that place (or most countries).

My safe experience in Ireland stopped though a year ago during July. I finished work and was waiting for the Matthews Bus at 20:00PM. Enough light outside and I was on Cumberland Street. some guy who sounded like he was from the North, asked me if the bus had come. He sounded a bit incoherent so I thought he may be under the influence of drugs.

A few minutes later he goes crazy after talking to a woman and then punches me in the jaw. Luckily someone stepped in but that was pretty terrifying.

hynesie08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120474618#Comment_120474618

Years ago a Garda told my Dad that if an intruder is in your living quarters ie. upstairs or in a bedroom… hes fair game, do whatever you need to ….. the same Garda told my old man, do the same downstairs but make sure we find him upstairs.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WdiTZPD4qiI

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120474625#Comment_120474625

Did the someone that defended you get in trouble? And who told you self defence was illegal in Ireland?

dxhound2005

If you arrive home to see a stranger coming out of your house and running down the street, don't go after them in your car and run them over. That is not self defence.

nothing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120474625#Comment_120474625

Now imagine if he'd had a gun, instead of using his fist.

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120474844#Comment_120474844

Chill out, any need for the language? No.

I am simply pointing out it will also lead to scumbags carrying it as well if it is legal...

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120474623#Comment_120474623

Great bit of whataboutery there. Where in my post did I say men shouldn't be able to carry it?

Scumbags can already carry things to harm people, that ship has sailed. Not lethal protection like pepper spray should IMO be legal for people to protect themselves.

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120474829#Comment_120474829

That wasn't a million miles away from an episode of 24 hours in police custody...pretty sure he got locked up.

This is case, lost his job, locked up and the burglars were taking him to court.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brazen-burglars-who-broke-family-28585443

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120475035#Comment_120475035

It's not whataboutery your post only mentioned women. I think it's important to discuss what the real world impact of making carrying something like that legal in Ireland could be.

I have been the victim myself of a pretty serious and entirely unprovoked attack, but even I can see legalising something like this would lead to little scumbags carrying it, thus more likely to use it on someone. There would be zero legal recourse for them being caught with it.

thegame983

Scumbags are the bread and butter of the legal system. We can't have people hurting them.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120475072#Comment_120475072

It was a real case in Dundalk years ago, although the jury found the driver not guilty. In a seque, as they say, the injured party sued the driver and was awarded €175,000. He was convicted of burglary.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0215/312377-mccaugheym/

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120475141#Comment_120475141

This was one I was thinking of.

He went to prison, lost his job, the two guys who did it suspended sentence and now suing his insurance. Genuinely bonkers.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brazen-burglars-who-broke-family-28585443

Yurt2

Self-defense isn't illegal. There are clear carve-outs in legislation to use proportionate force to defend yourself. (Section 18 of the Non-fatal offences against the person Act '97)

Self-defence in the home became a defence to fatal offences in legislation after the Pairic Nally case in Mayo, when the jury refused to convict him for murder or indeed manslaughter even though to the letter of the law at the time, he probably should have been convicted of manslaughter at least. The Government recognised that a "defence of the home" type clause had to be introduced after the case.

Basically this thread makes no sense. The DPP wont prosecute you, nor will a jury in the land convict you for assualt if there is a credible whiff of self-defence involved*.

*Depending on the circumstances, the DPP might be a bit more eager to prosecute if there is a fatality. But as we saw with the Brazilian up on charges for murder following a melee over a bike in the north inner city of Dublin, securing a conviction is difficult when self-defence is involved. The DPP probably should have pursued manslaughter in that case if they wanted to proceed, and at that, it probably wouldn't have got past a jury either.

newmember2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120475158#Comment_120475158

He crossed the line when he ran their motorbike off the road and into a parked vehicle with his car and was done for dangerous driving ...he's lucky he wasn't being done for murder or attempted murder.

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120475773#Comment_120475773

He maintained that was an accident I think, yet they get away with zero jail time, seems fair alright...

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058292273/why-is-self-defense-illegal

We also learn from the US that if you allow people to have guns for self-defence you also get huge numbers of firearms deaths that have nothing to do with self-defence. We also learn that being a gun-owner is associated with both you and those in your household being more likely to be the victims of violent crime, not less.

Basically, we learn that facilitating or encouraging private ownership of firearms as a means of controlling violent crime is a really bad policy with really poor outcomes. Let's not ignore the lesson.

Count Dracula

If they intrude your house you can pretty much go for it, in particular if you have a wife and kids you are protecting. They won't get away with saying that they broke in to check your post for you or that they thought their Auntie was unconscious in the spare room.

It is all well and good saying you would do such and such if they got in, but believe you me, any madser breaking into an occupied house means business and I would be locking yourself in somewhere safe and calling the cops. Strung out junckies are dangerous.

magicbastarder

as Peregrinus mentioned; if someone pulls a gun on you, you are much more likely to die if you are also armed. i assume part of it is that if someone has a gun pointed at you, and you go to pull a gun on them, you've basically given them no choice but to shoot.

IIRC part of the laws/rationale governing reasonable self defence here are whether you have/had a means of escape; if you stand your ground when the opportunity is available for you to flee (unless you are also trying to protect family members), it removes a lot of your 'i was afraid for my life, your honour' defence. because if you're truly afraid, you'd run.

kneemos

Guns are the leading cause of child death in America incredibly. Don't think there's another developed country that allows folk to walk around with a gun.

The Swiss have a guns in the event of of an invasion,but they're trained and keep them locked up.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476027#Comment_120476027

The Baltics, Czech republic, Austria, Poland all issue concealed carry permits for firearms.

Various other EU countries allow gun ownership but don't do concealed carrys

delboythedub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120474618#Comment_120474618

If there is going to be an inquest into death be AT it and NOT about it

BrianD3

Self defence is legal but owning/carrying weapons for self defence is not. A large, strong male who does MMA and urban combatives can legally use his physicality and skills to kill an attacker in self defence if necessary. Whereas a disabled or frail elderly person can't own non lethal CS gas to incapacitate someone. Indirect discrimination? .

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476224#Comment_120476224

Assault rifles for pensioners, krav maga classes for everyone else.

Yes I can see it now, we're well on the way to a safer, saner society for sure.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476407#Comment_120476407

Typical boards post. I mention CS gas you jump straight to talking about assault rifles.

If one person can defend themselves effectively with their bare hands while another can't due to differences in age, gender or disability status, it seems like indirect discrimination to not allow the latter person to own a non lethal self defence weapon.

BTW it is virtually impossible for a citizen to legally own an "assault rifle" for any reason, even in the most gun friendly states in the US. And no, an AR-15 is not an assault rifle. .

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120474448#Comment_120474448

That was the difference, though - if the individual is in retreat, then you don't need to defend yourself and at this point you're the aggressor (at least in the eyes of the law).

And no, that is NOT saying Nally was wrong or Ward was right - just in case it needs to be said.

As for guns: yeah, we can do without the US-style mass shootings, cheers. Unless you bring in a Chris Rock suggestion and make bullets about 5000 euro each :)

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476487#Comment_120476487

It is not discrimination.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476487#Comment_120476487

Lighten up eh?

monseiur

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120475140#Comment_120475140

But our ''great'' legal system makes handy cash on the injured ones too - there was a case some years ago when a gang from a certain city in the mid west on the banks of the Shannon broke into a supermarket in Mayo. The owner, who was living over the shop, heard the racket and came downstairs armed with a shot gun. He managed to get some hot lead into the rear end of one of the scumbags as they legged it. The injured party brought a compensation claim against the shop owner with the help of a barrister & solicitor paid for by us the tax payer...you just could not make it up.

If the Garda / DPP were on the ball they should have dragged him in front of a judge on a breaking & entering / criminal damage charge and ''persuaded'' him to name the rest of the scumbags in his gang.

dxhound2005

How much did he get?

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476744#Comment_120476744

Civil claims are not "paid for by the tax payer"

That's a myth

Dyr

Self defence is the most fundamental right there is.

We handicap oursleves in this regard on the understanding that the government will ensure a relatively safe environment and deal with those who assault others. Our government does no such thing which leaves the average joe at a significant disadvantage.

Women and other vulnerable people should be absolutely allowed to carry pepper spray so long as they learn how to use it effectively.

Even with the home defence bill a young man was sent to prison for killing a home intruder. The judge actually claimed it was excessive because the intruder was not armed, as if the victim, a teenager, was required to engage in a Queensbury rules match against a man who was older, bigger, drunk and had just smashed his way into the house. It shows how utterly deluded Irish judges are. The reality is an Irish judge will see the use of a bladed instrument as criminal regardless of the circumstances.

monseiur

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476804#Comment_120476804

Oops ... I forgot to mention that the judge dismissed the claim and rightly gave him a good bollocking - the 2011 Defense of Dwelling act was made law just 6 months previously. (It's known in the USA as 'make my day' act😉)

dxhound2005

Another one got a bollocking of sorts.

"A convicted burglar is trying to SUE a shopkeeper after injuring his genitals during the break-in. A gang of three men hit the shop at Main Street in Kingscourt, Co Cavan, but as they fled the scene, armed detectives moved in."

monseiur

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476807#Comment_120476807

According to reports in the papers at the time the scumbag's legal team were paid for by the free legal aid system. By the was I never said it was a civil claim.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476905#Comment_120476905

"Compensation claims" are civil claims. His criminal trial may well have been covered under legal aid, but he is on the hook for legal fees for a civil case. It has nothing to do with the taxpayer.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476881#Comment_120476881

Well there you have it, he didn't even succeed in his claim and is on the hook for the legal fees.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476841#Comment_120476841

The judge didn't decide that, the jury decided that based on the evidence in front of the court. That's our system - you can't blame a judge for a call a jury of peers makes. I'm not terribly familiar with the circumstances, but on first pass I would have been reluctant to convict on what I've read, but 12 men and women felt differently, and we weren't there for the trial hearing all the evidence.

The judge would have given clear instructions before jury deliberation that the options of murder, manslaughter or not guilty to either were open to them.