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Why is self-defense illegal?

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  • 13-04-2023 7:14pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭


    It's something I always wondered. Given the state of Dublin, would it not be great for people to get permits for weapons? As much as a disagree with the likes of Jones, he's right in saying that criminals don't respect gun laws.

    There is a slight reduction of crime in places in America where responsible gun owners have guns.



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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 15,072 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    But it's not.

    A guy in Mayo a few weeks ago was cleared of murder when he killed another man in self defense.

    And laws were changed over a decade ago in the aftermath of the Nally case, that gave people more rights when defending themselves and their property.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,180 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    It's not so clean cut to legally allow guns in Ireland. There'd be a lot of sh*t that would follow.

    Like for every person who would buy a gun to only defend themselves you'd have someone else pulling it on another in an argument etc. Some scumbag without a criminal record yet would be able to get one etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,691 ✭✭✭buried


    You can't have ordinary people taking the law into their own hands.

    That job is reserved for the legal racket who take it into their own pockets.

    "You have disgraced yourselves again" - W. B. Yeats



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,240 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    I remember the story I think it was the equivalent of about a 70 euro fine, it is illegal in lots of places including Ireland.

    In fairness if it was legal would it not just encourage scumbags to carry it as well?



  • Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭slither12


    I think self defense will become a lot more acceptable when high quality CCTV cameras become more ubiquitous. Right now, a lot of assault cases are a 'he said, she said". With good footage, there'd be no doubt as to who the aggressor was.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭Hangdogroad


    Because this isn't America and its an idiotic suggestion.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,401 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Self-defence is not illegal, carrying weapons for the purpose of it is, and rightly so. Is it just a co-incidence that people who carry knives tend to get into a lot of 'self-defence' situations?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,326 ✭✭✭Citizen  Six




  • Registered Users Posts: 32,240 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    She wasn't...she was fined a small amount for carrying pepper spray which is/was illegal in Denmark.

    As I already said if it was legal here it would give license to complete scumbags to carry it too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,580 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    It is not idiotic to suggest that women should be able to carry pepper spray or the likes to protect themselves from attack.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,161 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    First of all self defence is not illegal. Secondly it is not true that crime rates are lower in states where there are more guns. Thirdly, re making more guns available, I take it you are for whatever reason completely and utterly Unaware of the major issues they are having in America with the lack of gun control. As for you feeling unsafe in Dublin, have you ever lived outside of Ireland !



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,918 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    a person is allowed to use reasonable force in defending themselves and their property…

    however that depends on the view of the judge as to whether they understand or want to understand the facts and what constitutes ‘reasonable’ force.

    as we have learned over the last 6 or 7 years, many judges are contemptuous eejits who don’t know what they are at and are beyond out of touch with reality.

    Padraig Nally vs Frog Ward is an example. Nally ended up in jail for 11 months after having been sentenced for 6 or 7 years for manslaughter.

    In 2018, a Central Criminal Court jury acquitted Martin Keenan of the murder of an unarmed man he stabbed to death with a part from garden shears after finding him in his bedroom.. The man was in his bedroom yet the criminal justice system and these shithead judges want to know.. “ why didn’t you ASK him to leave “…” could you not have gently pushed him out ? “ Defence and the Dwelling Act 2011 determine you don’t….

    Years ago a Garda told my Dad that if an intruder is in your living quarters ie. upstairs or in a bedroom… hes fair game, do whatever you need to ….. the same Garda told my old man, do the same downstairs but make sure we find him upstairs.

    Self defence isn’t illegal just the law is weighted too heavily with the wellbeing of criminals in mind.



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,240 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Why only women?

    Why not men?

    Why not scumbags?

    If it's legal anyone could carry it, including those who might want to do harm to people...



  • Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭slither12


    Yea, I used to live in a third world shithole. Ireland is definitely safer than that place (or most countries).

    My safe experience in Ireland stopped though a year ago during July. I finished work and was waiting for the Matthews Bus at 20:00PM. Enough light outside and I was on Cumberland Street. some guy who sounded like he was from the North, asked me if the bus had come. He sounded a bit incoherent so I thought he may be under the influence of drugs.

    A few minutes later he goes crazy after talking to a woman and then punches me in the jaw. Luckily someone stepped in but that was pretty terrifying.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,720 ✭✭✭hynesie08


    Years ago a Garda told my Dad that if an intruder is in your living quarters ie. upstairs or in a bedroom… hes fair game, do whatever you need to ….. the same Garda told my old man, do the same downstairs but make sure we find him upstairs.




  • Registered Users Posts: 9,547 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Did the someone that defended you get in trouble? And who told you self defence was illegal in Ireland?



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,751 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    If you arrive home to see a stranger coming out of your house and running down the street, don't go after them in your car and run them over. That is not self defence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭nothing




  • Registered Users Posts: 32,240 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Chill out, any need for the language? No.

    I am simply pointing out it will also lead to scumbags carrying it as well if it is legal...



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,580 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Great bit of whataboutery there. Where in my post did I say men shouldn't be able to carry it?

    Scumbags can already carry things to harm people, that ship has sailed. Not lethal protection like pepper spray should IMO be legal for people to protect themselves.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,240 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    That wasn't a million miles away from an episode of 24 hours in police custody...pretty sure he got locked up.


    This is case, lost his job, locked up and the burglars were taking him to court.




  • Registered Users Posts: 32,240 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    It's not whataboutery your post only mentioned women. I think it's important to discuss what the real world impact of making carrying something like that legal in Ireland could be.

    I have been the victim myself of a pretty serious and entirely unprovoked attack, but even I can see legalising something like this would lead to little scumbags carrying it, thus more likely to use it on someone. There would be zero legal recourse for them being caught with it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 903 ✭✭✭thegame983


    Scumbags are the bread and butter of the legal system. We can't have people hurting them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,751 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    It was a real case in Dundalk years ago, although the jury found the driver not guilty. In a seque, as they say, the injured party sued the driver and was awarded €175,000. He was convicted of burglary.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0215/312377-mccaugheym/



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,240 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    This was one I was thinking of.

    He went to prison, lost his job, the two guys who did it suspended sentence and now suing his insurance. Genuinely bonkers.




  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Self-defense isn't illegal. There are clear carve-outs in legislation to use proportionate force to defend yourself. (Section 18 of the Non-fatal offences against the person Act '97)

    Self-defence in the home became a defence to fatal offences in legislation after the Pairic Nally case in Mayo, when the jury refused to convict him for murder or indeed manslaughter even though to the letter of the law at the time, he probably should have been convicted of manslaughter at least. The Government recognised that a "defence of the home" type clause had to be introduced after the case.

    Basically this thread makes no sense. The DPP wont prosecute you, nor will a jury in the land convict you for assualt if there is a credible whiff of self-defence involved*.

    *Depending on the circumstances, the DPP might be a bit more eager to prosecute if there is a fatality. But as we saw with the Brazilian up on charges for murder following a melee over a bike in the north inner city of Dublin, securing a conviction is difficult when self-defence is involved. The DPP probably should have pursued manslaughter in that case if they wanted to proceed, and at that, it probably wouldn't have got past a jury either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,594 ✭✭✭newmember2


    He crossed the line when he ran their motorbike off the road and into a parked vehicle with his car and was done for dangerous driving ...he's lucky he wasn't being done for murder or attempted murder.



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,240 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    He maintained that was an accident I think, yet they get away with zero jail time, seems fair alright...

    Post edited by gmisk on


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,167 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    We also learn from the US that if you allow people to have guns for self-defence you also get huge numbers of firearms deaths that have nothing to do with self-defence. We also learn that being a gun-owner is associated with both you and those in your household being more likely to be the victims of violent crime, not less.

    Basically, we learn that facilitating or encouraging private ownership of firearms as a means of controlling violent crime is a really bad policy with really poor outcomes. Let's not ignore the lesson.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭Count Dracula


    If they intrude your house you can pretty much go for it, in particular if you have a wife and kids you are protecting. They won't get away with saying that they broke in to check your post for you or that they thought their Auntie was unconscious in the spare room.

    It is all well and good saying you would do such and such if they got in, but believe you me, any madser breaking into an occupied house means business and I would be locking yourself in somewhere safe and calling the cops. Strung out junckies are dangerous.



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