Fusebox access disaster

dublincc2

I'm completely inexperienced in DIY or electrical matters and I'm really stuck with this. I am currently taking care of a house in a rural area and was visiting it over the weekend. The house has been having some electrical issues for quite a while and I recently discovered that the fusebox is embedded in the wall of the extension that was done by a relative who used to live in the house, basically he put a partition wall in front of the wall where the fusebox was mounted and built around it. This was done many years ago, the house is quite old.

I callrd an electrician out to deal with the problems (the house needs to be completely rewired) but he said that I would need to provide access to the fusebox. I suggested taking a lump hammer to the wall but he said this could cause serious damage to piping etc. Also I'm not the owner of the house and don't want to damage it.

Any suggestions on how to sort this one out?

blackbox

I can't imagine that someone who was handy enough to build an extension left no means of access to replace a blown fuse. Are you certain you are looking in the right place?

Fine Cheers

When you say mounted around it, how do you know ? Can you see any part of the fuse board ? Maybe a new one was fitted as part of the extension and the old one now defunct ?

dublincc2

There is no other fusebox anywhere in the house. I was told that the fusebox is behind the partition wall. I haven't lived in the house I just visit every now and then to check up for the owners who are living abroad.

the_amazing_raisin

Well since we're already talking extreme measures like rewiring the house, could a new fusebox be installed in an accessible location and the new wiring connected to that?

Then just cut and terminate the wires to the old fusebox and leave it where it is?

It would probably require the meter tails to be redone as well which would mean the ESB needs to come out, adding extra cost

10-10-20

It's a plasterboard wall or a block/brick wall which is in front of this consumer unit?

Would you not try verify the information by cutting a small hole in this wall to make a visual assessment?

dublincc2

It's a brick wall. I'm not even sure where exactly behind the wall the box actually is, but I'm 100% sure it is behind that particular wall.

The Continental Op

I think your electrician was looking for an excuse to get out of doing anything. If its that bad can't blame him.

If its a partition you can take it down or cut into it. I'd start marking out all the studs and nails in the wall with a stud finder. If you can spot any electrical cables in the wall mark them also. A reasonably cheap detector should find the studs and any nails plus cables down to 50mm. You could hire a better one but even for a day it will cost well over €100 and may only give you a general idea of location.

Then you could also make a small hole and take a look around with some form of cheap endoscope example. Another option is a thermal camera which might spot the fuse box from any heat bad connections are generating - fire up a few appliances to put a load on the fuse board.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120470568#Comment_120470568

I'm still struggling to understand this

So the fuse box is mounted to a wall in the house

The relative then built another brick wall in front of the fuse box and effectively walled it in with no access.

Am I right, or way off?

Where is the fusebox in the house? Normally it was inside the house close to where the meter box is on the outside

I'm struggling to see how they built a partition wall for an extension on the inside of the house where the fuse box is, wouldn't it have gone on the outside?

Maybe some pictures or a sketch might help

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120470837#Comment_120470837

Yes you've got it right. It's on the wall at what was the front of the house but the extension now just out. The meter box is at the side.

I don't know why it was built that way but that's the way it is. When I'm back down in a few days I'll get some pictures.

dathi

https://dublintrends.com/products/waterproof-endoscope-inspection-camera-for-android-devices?currency=EUR&variant=31540578648179&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google%20Shopping&gclid=CjwKCAjw0N6hBhAUEiwAXab-TXdsUhstN5LsMn0aaiRFHJZ5Rh6-Qawdc5TFbkeXLUvbfL1IxgQeVRoC80MQAvD_BwE

buy one of these and drill a few small holes until you find its location

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120470941#Comment_120470941

Okay I get you now

Is it possible they just plastered over the fuse box, maybe if you tap on the wall you'd be able to find a bit that sounds hollow?

In any case, if they've blocked off access to the fuse box then that's a pretty serious electrical safety issue. The electrician is right that they can't really touch it, there's no way for them to safely isolate a circuit before working on it

They could pull the fuse out of the ESB meter, but only ESBN engineers are supposed to touch anything in there

In terms of how to fix it, I still think the simplest solution is to put a new fuse board in and rewire the house back to the new one

If you're lucky you could use the existing meter tails (the wire from the meter to the fuse box) if you put the new box close to where the old one is

Most likely this is going to cost a lot of money, so you'll probably need to contact the owners with the bad news

If it’s sealed in behind a brick wall you might genuinely be better to abandon the installation and rewire, if that’s what you’re planning to do anyway.

The electrician isn’t going to tackle a construction issue. They can do minor stuff to get wiring, fittings and ducts in but that sounds way beyond the scope of electrical work and would need a builder involved. If the wall is load bearing or supporting the roof, there’ll be a lot more careful work involved than just knocking it though.

If they can’t see the fuse board it would likely also mean needing to fully isolate the supply at the meter, which could even involve needing to get the ESB involved.

Girl Geraldine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120470612#Comment_120470612

I was just going to say it. Sounds like a headache and the electrician was throwing out the "damage the pipes" line to put you off cos he knows the houses is an electrical nightmare and don't want to be getting stuck into it.

Girl Geraldine

Something sounds mad here. Why in the name of jesus would they build a brick wall across the fuse box blocking it off? It would obviously be wrong, it even the worst of cowboys. I tmakes no sense. And how would they have completed the electical fit out and switch on of the new extention if the fuse box was inaccessible?

Are you absolutely full sure that it is a block/brick wall and not a stud partition? Have you checked this to make absolutely sure?

I am thinking that a stud partition could have been put along in front, with the intention that a cutout would be made in the slab once it was up, but it might have been forgotten about - that would be a more reasonable situation.

For block wall to be build infront of a fuse board seems impractical to do

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120472367#Comment_120472367

I'm 100% sure it's a solid brick wall.

There are no hollow points in the wall so I'm not even sure if the exact position of the box.

Seriously considering taking a lump hammer to the wall as there doesn't seem to be any other way to access the fuse board.

I don't know why it was built that way and I'm not familiar with construction or house building at all so I just assumed that's how they were built decades ago before planning regulations etc.

Did you have a look in the attic to see if it had been moved there. It would be unusual to block it off completely, any time something trips you would have to get the sledge out.

Girl Geraldine

"I'm not familiar with construction or house building at all so I just assumed that's how they were built decades ago before planning regulations etc."

Well then how can you be sure of how it is built? You are only guessing. And the electrical fit out has nothing to do with planning regulations.

And taking a sledgehammer to the wall is not the way to investigate it. You'd have ribbons made of the place.

Drill a hole, then rent a borescope and have a look in.

Also, as someone rightly pointed out, check in the attic in case it was moved up there. What's more, if it is a bungalow, you might be able to trace the wiring back to some point where all the wires meet - that means the fuse box is underneath that point.

Also where does the main ESB cable enter the house from the meter box. Could you trace that along and see where it comes out in the house?

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120473794#Comment_120473794

I'm 100% sure of how the house is built. The box is behind a brick wall. I just was unsure of the logic as to why the fusebox was bricked in as I'm not familiar with the physical construction process.

The attic is completely empty and the fusebox is definitely behind the wall.

As for the ESB cable I will check the next time in in the house.

I’m just wondering how they imagined the fuse board was going to be used…

Fuses blow, MCBs and RCDs trip. They have to be accessible.

eggy81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120473842#Comment_120473842

Hardly a bungalow by any chance. Can you determine the position of fuse board by looking at cables dropping down from attic

Alun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120475768#Comment_120475768

I know, it all seems very odd. If a wall was built in front of the wall the fuse box is on, then there must be a void between the walls for no obvious reason I can see apart, maybe, from hiding a dead body 😲

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476750#Comment_120476750

Yes I went up to the attic to see if there was a void so I could look down with a torch but the open section where the void is at the edge of the attic has been sealed with concrete slabs so the void is 100% sealed even from the roofspace.p

The cables are going down through a small hole in the blocks over the void in the attic and it seems that the box would be in the left side of the wall but I'm not sure if the wires go straight down or curve before reaching the box. again I have no experience with fuseboards or electrics etc.

Being honest it seems to just get it over and done with I should either hammer through the wall or the blocks in the attic, I just want to get the rewiring started as soon as possible.

The Continental Op

If you can make a good guess as to where the fuse board might be you could cut out with a concrete saw. Start by cutting out a small hole say 30cm x 30cm take a look at whats behind then adjust so you cut out just the required amount to get to the fuse box. You still need a lump hammer and chisel for the corners but it will be much more of a tidy job. You could even smash a small hole and then go and hire a con saw to cut when you can see your target.

Alternately what I often do is drill holes with a 10mm SDS drill bit (spaces at about 30mm or closer centres) then chop the gap with a bolster and lump hammer.

The Continental Op

No ones asked the obvious question?

WHERE IS THE METER?

In old houses they are often inside next to the fuse box.

Trigger Happy

If this is not your house why would you bother trying to investigate this? Leave it to the owners to get a professional in to assess and fix. Likely by isolating the existing fusebox and installing a new one in an accessible point after isolating the main feed. Best done as part of re-wiring the house. A professional would be able to give proper certification etc on job completion.

My worry would be that if someone did a mickey mouse job by sealing in the fusebox then what else have they done that could pose a safety or structural integrity risk. The home insurance question would be an interesting one if this is a real botch job.

It does seem strange that no fuse has ever blown or tripped in the years since this job was done.

dublincc2

The meter is behind the wall too.

I'm looking after the house as a favour for some relatives and they trust me to take care of it. The rewiring needs to be done and I just want to get on with it.

I can't understand why the box has been sealed in so tightly both with the wall and with slabs in the attic. The wall seems to be extremely thick in not sure if I could drill all the way through.

The Continental Op

Next obvious question

How the fcuk has the meter been read?

Just to get the meter read has to be a good reason to go at the wall.

Plus you can't rewire if you can't get at the meter.

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120477421#Comment_120477421

Honestly I don't know, the house has been unoccupied for some time I just go down now and again to check everything is in order.

The last few times I was in the house there were several issues, first of all there were sparks coming from the shower when I turned it on, no water came out just sparks flying, also there has been a constant smell of burning every time I go into the house but I've never found out what it was, I've also seen what looked like smoke coming from the ceiling near the lights a few times but again nothing. I decided to rewire the house and that's when I found out from the owners that the box was bricked in.

Trigger Happy

That house sounds like it needs to be electrically condemned. It sounds like a hazard that is about to go up. And you cannot even cut the power to it...jesus.

Lumen

This is a very strange situation.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120477417#Comment_120477417

I think you need to be very careful here, you don't own the house, nor do you seem to have any power of attorney over it

You're looking after the house as a favour, which is cool, but if anything happens to it while you're getting work done then you'll be held liable

I would strongly suggest getting in touch with the owner, making the situation clear to them and explain what is needed

They can either organise the rewiring works themselves or you can act as their agent.

I'm not sure if a simple email granting you permission to go ahead will suffice here, you'll be signing them up to some very expensive renovations which they will presumably be paying for

If you're footing the bill and expecting repayment then you'll again need it in writing exactly how much you'll be paying and get them to agree to pay you back (including a date by which you expect to be paid)

I'd be tempted to talk to a solicitor about this in case you need to draw up some formal contract or power of attorney or something

I know this might sound extreme considering the owner is your friend, however nothing sours a friendship better than unpaid debts or spending someone's money.

I would be sorting this out before doing any work on the house so that you preserve your friendship rather than ruin it

phormium

You're lucky no one has been living in it with the way the cost of electricty has gone as otherwise it would be estimated bills back to when meter last read, a friend of mine today got a bill for 1k and they are in some shock as their bills back in normal times were around 100 quid every two months, tiny house/single person. But this one was a reading as some work was done to meter so chances are it wasn't read for past year at least in his case.

awec

Something makes no sense here.

Presumably someone lived in this house at some point, and while they lived there this wall was built.

At some point that person was no longer occupying the house. So there are only 2 outcomes:

1. They closed their electricity account, and to do this you need to provide a real reading. How did they do this if the meter is buried in the wall?
2. Their electricity account was never closed, and someone has been paying estimated electricity bills for an unoccupied house. The estimated bills are going to be based on the previous usage from when someone did live there, so they are not going to be insigificant.

Are you 100% sure the meter and fusebox are in that wall?

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120478323#Comment_120478323

The bills are still begin paid by the owner, I assume that includes electricity, I don't know for sure because it's not my business to ask.

The fusebox and meter are sealed in the wall.

dublincc2

Would any electrician be able to do anything to sort this problem out?

The Continental Op

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120478504#Comment_120478504

They aren't going to want to bother. Its too much of a mess. Maybe if you paid them enough they'd do it but really why would they bother with all the hassle. Try by all means but you are going to need to be upfront with them and be lucky enough to find one that doesn't mind doing some building work along with the electrical stuff or at least an electrician who knows someone who'd be up for knocking the wall.

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120477477#Comment_120477477

Jaysus, I wouldn't be touching too much in there! Have you got good life insurance :)

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120478633#Comment_120478633

Yeah I agree, best solution for that house is to burn it down IMO

Sounds like it's pretty far along with that plan already

MarkR

Wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot insulated pole.

dublincc2

Is there any logical reason as to why the fusebox and meter would have been sealed up like this? Was this something that was done in the old days of house extensions etc? Like I say I'm a complete novice on these matters. I'm also concerned about using a hammer as I believe the wall is part of the support structure.

I'm basically out of options with an electrician it seems.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120478844#Comment_120478844

There could not be a logical reason. It isn't something that was done in the old days - in the old days you'd need access to change fuses and read the meter; just like you would need access to flip breakers and, well, read the meters still now.

Anyone who would brick it up is, basically, insane.

The Continental Op

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120478844#Comment_120478844

Try a few electricians just don't expect the first one to jump at the job.

phormium

Absolutely no logic to it, was that particular wall that enclosed it built when the extension was finished as I presume the extension is wired and that couldn't have been done if the fuseboard had already been entombed when building.

I know you're adamant it's in there but it's just so hard to understand why anyone would do that! Not to mention the mess the electricity account must be in, my father used to get letters if there hadn't been an actual meter reading or one submitted within certain length of time. Does the house get post? Has anything like that been received that you recall or if all bill correspondence is going to the owner abroad they surely must have got something if all bills are estimated. Nothing about this makes sense!

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120478844#Comment_120478844

No. There are no good reasons to do this. This is one of the weirdest things I've ever read on this forum. Imagine welding your car bonnet shut. Putting a lock on your house that can only be opened from the inside.

This is one of those things that's so insane that even though you've told us you're absolutely certain it's in there we're still not convinced it's true. I genuinely cannot understand how someone with the skills to build a brick wall thought hiding the fusebox was ok. It makes absolutely no sense.

Electricians don't carry sledgehammers or concrete saws as part of their kit cause they don't expect to have to perform some literal demolition to access a fuse box, none of them are going to be interested in fixing this.

Think about this for a second. If you wanted to change a light fitting in this gaff you'd have to literally demolish a wall to cut the power.

The owner has been paying estimated bills for an unoccupied house all these years, clearly money is no object, I'd make it their problem and not yours cause this is going to be a mess.

Esel

Drill a few holes and see if you can detect the smell of death.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120477477#Comment_120477477

Just saw this post.

Sparks from the shower. Burning smell. Smoke from ceiling.

If I were you OP I'd never step foot in this house again.

elperello

Just contact the owner tell them the story and let them deal with it.

dublincc2

The extension was completed and wired up and then they built the wall and put the slabs over the attic. It seems that for some reason they wanted to completely deal off the meter and fuse board.

I am thinking that I should probably step back from this but the owner trusted me with taking care of the house, I think they want to rent it out down the line which is why the rewiring is a priority.

Flinty997

Its doesn't make sense that you are ok with rewiring the house but not finding the fuse box.

phormium

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120479798#Comment_120479798

But OP does want to find fusebox, wants electrician that will do it or wants to take sledgehammer to wall!

It's the rest of us that just cannot comprehend that it's actually in there!