Anyone exit Suckler system??

50HX

As the title asks and if so what system did you change to and how is it working out

emaherx

No, but I intend on getting out this year, thinking about rearing calves from next year.

doyleshill

Same here.

50HX

I've gone from 30 to 15 over 2 years, I've silage ground rented out this year for cash

I'm goin to keep this year's weanlings and maybe 5 cows

Just wondering what system people have gotten into & how does it compare

Young kids here& better half on shift but main reason is the finances for sucklers don't add up

patsy_mccabe

Ya more and more getting out. It's a lot of hardship with little reward. I watched dairy bred AA calves selling for 50euro in Ross mart about 2 weeks ago. In the older ring, same day saw 650kg 22 month AA bullocks making over 2000.

funkey_monkey

We are down into single digit cows now. Got rid of bull and going with ftai initially. Trying to improve the cows in herd. Usually also bring in number of calves to rear on but when we get some poor ground sorted we will know which to increase.

Trying bull calves this year instead of heifers. Hopefully sale day is better with these ones.

If the ftai works out well then we will stick and bring the calves through to bull beef where possible. If its a disaster, then I can see us concentrating on calf rearing.

emaherx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120466523#Comment_120466523

Kids are part of my decision too, they want to be more and more involved and I think rearing calves without calving cows and keeping a stock bull will allow them a lot more involvement with better safety. I was originally thinking of going AI but the farm is too disjointed and it wouldn't be practical.

carrollsno1

The auld lad here is pushing for 60, hes not going to enter the new suckler scheme as hes not going to commit to 5 years however he could be saying the same thing the next time a new scheme is launched again. If it was my turn to take the reins (if ever it comes) id be upping cow numbers and selling progeny at weaning or after the first winter.

Hard Knocks

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120466680#Comment_120466680

Not knocking your plan, I don’t know if the €50 AA calf will make €2000 at 22 months. It takes good genetics and allot of effort to get a bullock to 650kg. You need to be on your game the day you’re buying. Saw a 22 month AA at 350kg make €700 last night.

patsy_mccabe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120466969#Comment_120466969

Oh, I know but it was an eye opener seeing it. They had some condition on them in fairness. Not my plan, BTW.

farawaygrass

Down to single digits too and sold the bull last year. I’m getting out the last few years but finding it hard to make the break. My reference for the new scheme is 25 so it’d be up on over 3k of a payment but even that’s not really making me thinking of staying going with them. Wouldn’t be on bad land but cattle went in here bout 20th of October and they are only back out a week now, and the fields are full of closhs today. That’s a long winter.

planning on upping sheep numbers a bit and also buying runners or weanling. Would have one group less for grazing so hoping grazing management should be a tad easier too. I’ll be sad to see them so but I think looking back in a year I won’t regret it.

Cavanjack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120467036#Comment_120467036

I had a neighbor’s 20 month old heifers in the yard last October. I couldn’t get over the size of them compared to the 500kg continental bullocks of the same age that I had just bought. The heifers made a show of them.

Surely you’d think the continental calf sucking a cow for 9 months should be miles ahead.

50HX

It's the silage I find the killer

@40e per bale that's 480 for a 6 month winter, that'll be 7 months this year

Cow rearing a calf maybe for 2mnths of that(depending on calving date but assume spring based calving)

So for the other 4 months she munching away at well over 2euro a day and no return

Any other system would involve weight gain= a return

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120467130#Comment_120467130

500 kg continentals at 20 months. That’s a shocking weight for continentals.

I don’t understand how lads keep feeding cattle 6 or 7 months. Lighter stock might work.

Rusheseverywhere

The long winter is killing it thinking of out myself. The amount of silage cows eat is ridicolous mine are eating 12 bales over the winter easily, add in straw bit of meal, minerals, dosing etc too much against the weanling let alone what the weanlings own costs. You need to be producing the 1500 bull calf to justify it. the 800 to 900 weanling I produce is no use. Also calf losses really kill it. Family at dry stock and very rare to lose a beast at that.

blue5000

Cut the numbers here too, went organic.

Rusheseverywhere

Organic no better either I found more costs same money.

https://www.icbf.com/dairy-beef-steers-average-323kgs-carcass-weight-at-21-months-old/

IF that is right sucklers days seem numbered except for an export market.

charolais0153

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120467386#Comment_120467386

That’s the killer is the dead calf especially at small numbers. Takes the good out of them

Cavanjack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120467384#Comment_120467384

500kg and lighter, Marts be full of them at the back end of the year. They are usually hungry at that weight and do a good thrive to kill off grass the following year.

I’ve yearling bulls that I wintered heading for 450-500kg at the minute. I’d like them hanging at 20 months.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120467484#Comment_120467484

That’s a very poor weight for a 20 month old continental.

No fortune to be made in a handy sized farm. Future options may be partnerships where a few small farmers pool resources including labour to scale for efficiency.

Dont know how anyone could make a decent living in livestock with a 7 month winter even if the were milking cows

Anto_Meath

I rear 20 bucket fed calves and have 20 suckler cows. Last year my bucket fed bullocks killed out at an average of €1,600 each. My LMx cross cattle came into an average of €2,100. Between purchases price, milk, meal, hay, straw and vets it costs me €400 to get my bucket fed calves to the end of October on their first year. After that all costs in getting the cattle to slaughter would be similar. The main difference is getting my suckler bred cattle away in July / August @ circa €5.15/kg and the bucket fed lads are away end of September / October @ circa €4.60 and the suckler would be killing out up to 30-40 kgs heavier. So between the difference in sale price, cost of bucket fed calves and the €160 suckler premium there is a €1,060 gross more in my suckler cows. It cost €240 per cow on silage for the winter (6 bales (€40 / bale) a week for them all for 20 weeks) and I would estimate €360 /cow for the summer period so total cost to maintain my cows would be €600 /head per year.

Jim Simmental

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120468011#Comment_120468011

Do you run the sucklers and bucket calves together or do you have to keep them separate ?

farawaygrass

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120468011#Comment_120468011

you would keep at least twice as many bucket reared if there was no cows would ya? How would that work with your figures

If there was that much money in bucket rearing then there wouldn’t be a need to export so many of the calves.

There is a lot of work in bucket rearing calves as well. Maybe the lads using old dairy cows to rear two or three calves are set up better for it

Anto_Meath

@Jim Simmental I would run them separately until about the end of August, then I would have the bucket feds with the sucklers as I find they help train the suckler calves to come into the yard for some crunch. I also find having the quite bucket fed calves around the suckler calves help keep them quite and settled.

Anto_Meath

@farawaygrass yes I could but that would involve a good bit more work mixing more milk, more feeding and more bedding in the spring, it take the best part of an hour morning and evening for April & May feeding the 20 I have and I am only a part time farmer. If I was to increase numbers to say 50 I would need to look at an automatic feeder, there would also be the increased risk of scours and diseases with increased numbers of calves. Plus one of the reasons I feed calves is to have the kids (4 & 9) involved in the farm, they enjoy the hour in the evening helping but if it was to be any longer they would probably get pissed off and leave me at it on my own.

The other thing I have noticed over the years is no matter what the trade is for stock, you can bring suckler bred cattle to the mart any day and get their value. I have seen at time when prices were poor (2019) you were getting badly insulted the money offered in marts for dairy bred stock.

50HX

@Anto_Meath great insight to your figures thanks

@600 per cow that's just for feed yeah?

What are the other figures for say minerals,dose, vet,bedding, ai or bull maintenance, mart transport etc

Do you load the expenses of the suck calf onto the cow or separate I.e tag bvd test,blackleg dose mart transport etc

Anto_Meath

The €600 per cow would cover my total costs associated with keeping of each cow, vet, AI, minerals (used 18 pre-calver buckets for the winter €300), new tags and BVD testing. My other expenses like fertilizer, land rental, slurry spreading, tractor diesel (have my own cattle trailer for transport) fencing I add up and divide across all cattle.

I use an easy calving AI LM bull on most of my cows and thankfully that keeps my vets bills low. I would spend a lot more in the vets on the bucket fed calves with, scour tablets, antibiotics for scours and chills, anesthetics for dehorning, alu spray & tonavet as I find bucket fed calves need a little extra to keep them thriving, I also find I give the bucket fed calves something like Endospec in the end of July / August as they tend to pick up a bit more of a worm burden in their first year over suckler fed calves.

I find paying on the visa card very handy for keeping track of the expenses as I can sit down every so often go through the account and extract what I have spent money on and that helps with costs and planning.

50HX

I'm coming at it from a different angle, the fertiliser mineral buckets fencing slurry transport etc I put onto each cow as she has to carry that cost, the more heads the greater the spread of costs but also the greater overall costs

Broadly speaking you could say that land costs are the same regardless of which beef enterprise. All animals have to watered fenced etc

Does anybody else look at it this way as in overall cost divided by cow?

Sorry if this sounds pedantic 😀

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120470282#Comment_120470282

I’d say 40 euro for the bale of silage would include fertiliser to grow it.

Its worth keeping a handle on costs and seeing where the value add really is.

In my opinion you need to have some kind of quality stock to have any hope alternative is buy lesser quality bullocks and let them there spend nothing or as little as possible on them and do them over 30 months.

If you can’t breed your own stock then maybe an option is to partner with a dairy farmer and assist him with calving etc in exchange for a shot of the male calves.

Other option is contract rearing or rent the place out.

Fencing, slurry, transportation. They can’t be bad.

Like if you have good hobbies or an alternative enterprise or are sick of farming or a combination of all three then renting it out has to be considered.

50HX

Not sick of farming at all but I hear what you are saying

Just looking at systems & figures and trying to work out what works best both financially & time wise

tanko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120470686#Comment_120470686

If you have a decent number of acres and depending on land type, Organic farming has to be worth looking at imo.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120470686#Comment_120470686

Could be one for a whiteboard.

A swot analysis or something. It’s good to get ideas down in paper or on a board and see what the current situation is and how it could be improved.

With all this talk of dairy expansion I wonder has anyone gone in to goat milking? Goats cheese is nice. Must be a decent market for it

50HX

Land here not good enough for organic

I kinda did the whiteboard thing &tbh the biggest takeaway was the time sucklers consume along with the cost

I looked at it with a friend whose from the city & wouldn't know a heifer from a bullock but great to hear a a completely different viewpoint

Grueller

I genuinely think anyone that is at sucklers doesn't realise how handy life could be at drystock.

I reared 50 calves on an computerised feeder here last year. It took no more than 20 minutes a day Monday to Friday. Every Saturday morning their shed was cleaned out, swept, limed and re-bedded. Then 20 minutes a day again. No calving of sucklers, getting them back in calf and all of the time and danger that's associated with them.

For a part time farmer dry stock is a far better option imo, be that rearing calves, buying weanlings or buying stores. Sucklers are too time consuming and end up eating time that should be spent on family or the day job that actually pays the bills.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120471275#Comment_120471275

Well if you have a 6 month winter then I think a change to lighter stock that could stay out longer could be an option.

There is a lot of work in bucket rearing calves.

The labour element of sucklers is greatly reduced with cows that can calve on their own to a relatively easy calving bull and have the calf drinking themselves.

Like I wouldn’t be interested in farming if I wasn’t producing something on the farm be it breeding stock, dairy or crops.

You could buy a few stock in the late spring each year to keep the grass down and shift them to the lads buying for the sheds in October.

Grueller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120471339#Comment_120471339

Like I said in my post above, bucket rearing is an outdated concept. Computerised feeder and the labour is gone.

charolais0153

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120471364#Comment_120471364

How much is one if you don’t mind me asking

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120471364#Comment_120471364

How much did the the feeder cost?

I have around 10 cows calved outside this spring. Takes around 2 minutes to feed them. Zero bedding and none of them needed assistance even at calving.

You touch on a good point there about docility. It’s crucial in any livestock.

The op clearly wants to change system. Like I said above maybe teaming up with a dairy farmer to source calves might be an option?

If you have a 6 month winter typically then that would make any livestock operation a challenge.

Rearing calves is hard. Fresh bedding every day, scours, pneumonia etc.

You said you are down to single digits in terms of cows now and getting cash for silage ground etc.

It’s important to replace the p and k lost in silage.

It might be worth chatting with your advisor. A lot of lads rearing calves pack it in. If you had someone you could trust to buy you a load of yearlings every spring it might be a better option.

Grueller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120471370#Comment_120471370

Mine is there since last year but it was €10,500 +VAT. VAT claimed back as its a fixed item, then 40% grant left it at €6300.

Ideally you should try and talk to a lad doing calf to beef locally. Get his opinion. Or your advisor.

A lot of the lads quoted in the journal and on agriland etc are on good land with maybe a 3 month winter.

If you have a 6 month winter and have to keep them till 30 months then would it make sense?

Just because there are grants for equipment etc won’t make a difference if it doesn’t make sense as an enterprise for your set up.

Grueller

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120471457#Comment_120471457

A lot of lad's at sucklers pack it in too Bark. Now more than ever with the cost of inputs.

The scours, pneumonia etc can be a problem I admit, but they aren't, and haven't been here for the last 3 years since I started rearing calves. Granted I rear my own, they all get 4+ litres of biestings. The biggest thing needed in my opinion is a shed that can be cleaned out and bedded quickly and easily. If you have that you will do it regularly and a dry clean bed is a huge necessity at the calf game.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120472062#Comment_120472062

There has been a significant exodus from sucklers.

It’s rare to even see sucklers now. All I see is lads expanding in dairy cows (lads milking 100 trying to get to 200 lads milking 300 trying to get to 500) so there should be no shortage of calves to pick from when doing calf to beef.

Ideally you could get accurate genomic detail when buying.

You are right on the shed. Needs to be clean with good ventilation.

I have a lot of respect for dairy lads that finish there own calves and take pride in their stock and don’t treat them like a byproduct.

Surely pallets are a better option with the space narrowed so the calf can’t hurt his leg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120472343#Comment_120472343

Yeah but say for the first mont or so. When the calves get bigger you could remove the pallets.

The right job would be a slant in the concrete for a natural drain off

patsy_mccabe

I think if I was building a calf shed, I'd have one pen constantly free and rotate all the pens cleaning the pens in turn. I hate to have a build up of straw in a pen. With large numbers, I'd be inclined to have separate sheds too to minimise disease spreading throughout the entire lot.

Siamsa Sessions

Not sure but I think second-hand computerised feeders can be got for €2-3k on DoneDeal.

Even the €6,300 Grueller paid isn't huge money given the time/labour saved.

If I stay rearing calves, I'd be seriously considering it.

DBK1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120472692#Comment_120472692

For anyone with an off farm job that results in the farm paying tax in the high band you’d save half the price of the feeder on your tax bill too which makes it a small investment then for what it does.

If you’re going to rear 50 calves a year and average the price out over 10 years or so worth of calves you’d be talking about a fiver a calf to save all the mixing and carrying buckets.

Jim Simmental

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120472096#Comment_120472096

Funny thing though is suckler springing heifers / cows with calves at foot are easily making €2000 + here in the NW

I don’t think you could buy a decent LMX or SIX 600kg + springing heifer for €1700 - €1800 these days

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120472960#Comment_120472960

Probably a supply and demand thing. Less and less quality stock floating around

Sure the cow is surely worth 1400 and the calf if any way decent is worth 600