RTE radio1 LW

itsme2

Just heard on the LW transmission that there to stop broadcasting on the LW band from 14 April 23. 😪

All that "essential maintenance" was money well spent!

boardsuser1000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120421833#Comment_120421833

I won't be surprised if that "essential maintenance" was to "encourage" people to stop listening to lw252.

Listening to it on a SDR from Kilmichael Co Cork and it sounds like RTE is interfering with Algeria.

JDxtra

Whatever the real reason, it was time for it to go.

RTE have good online and satellite options for those outside of Ireland, I'm sure many of whom have already moved.

We have to be realistic. The band is dead and the service was too expensive to run and maintain for a very limited audience.

marno21

It's a no brainer at this stage. Very little left on LW now, 252 is difficult to listen to in many places with the Algerian interference and the rising energy costs in the last year or so have put the final nail in the coffin.

AM in general is on its last legs in Europe, MW & LW. Not a whole pile left there now and what's left is disappearing fast.

(Here in New South Wales it's a completely different story, in Sydney the main commerical talk station and the 3 ABC (national broadcaster/RTE equivalent) talk stations are all on MW. In Sydney the equivalent of RTE Radio 1 and Newstalk are not available on FM - AM only (although they are available on DAB)).

L1011

Ah, I wonder if we'll get the angry troll accounts reappearing like last time this was announced.

Lots of anoraks who want it to remain just because are going to trot out the line about the elderly in the UK again too; I suspect. Realistically many/most of those from the 2014 survey won't be with us anymore.

This feels like severe Déjà vu, we have been down this road about 4 times since 2012, it goes like this, RTE announce closure of LW 252, a couple of days later an newspaper does a story about an elderly disabled expat in England who listens to Joe Duffy daily on LW, an obscure backbench TD/Senator or two come out calling the LW closure an attack on the vulnerable and call on the minister to do something. More newspaper stories about sick/elderly/disabled LW listeners. Minister says he has no say in the matter but hopes RTE takes on board concerns of LW users, RTE postpone LW closure pending a report/review

Double post delete

Full press release here, basically RTE are this time using climate change as the reason to close LW https://about.rte.ie/2023/03/31/rte-radio-1-to-cease-broadcasting-on-long-wave/

StevenToast

Absolute nonsense press release from Dee Forbes.....pushing the climate change angle!!!

What horseshìte.....

And seeing her calling for savings of £200-400k made me laugh with the disgraceful fees she oversees going to Tubridy etc.....

Pìss off Dee, you have no credibility when it comes to saving money or reducing carbon emissions ....

Zero covid cheerleader Senator Craughwell isn't happy https://mobile.twitter.com/EndaOKane/status/1367592325216563201/mediaviewer

JDxtra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120422324#Comment_120422324

In the press release they careful explained the logic used to terminate the service and these reasons seem fair. Electricity is now very expensive - spending an estimated 400k on this alone in 2023 would not be a good use of money. I get it - they waste money elsewhere on salaries, but that doesn't mean they should also fund LW.

tinytobe

Just wondering how long BBC Radio 4 on LW will be on air. I suspect it'll be next year at the latest.

At least Radio Teleswitch Service has been extended until end of March 2024.

ford fiesta

252 LW is the anoraks dream in Ireland, UK and beyond.

I will very much miss currently hearing Atlantic 252 songs, on Radio 1 Long Wave, especially at night when RTE Gold is relayed.

End of an era since mid 1989

StevenToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120422486#Comment_120422486

I agree.....i am all for getting rid of waste....

But it just really grates to hear it coming from Dee Forbes....

Its like when Charlie Haughey came out to tell the country to "tighten their belts" when he was off buying silk shirts for himself....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120422530#Comment_120422530

I reckon it might keeping going until 2027 and it and 5Live MW will be switched off together

There's an elephant in the room that hasn't been mentioned, less than 2 years ago, RTE carried out 10 weeks maintenance work on the transmission mast https://about.rte.ie/2021/06/11/essential-maintenance-of-rte-longwave-transmitter/#:~:text=RT%C3%89%20will%20carry%20out%20essential,RT%C3%89%20Radio%201%20on%20LW.

SPDUB

I'd like to know why they spent money on maintenance including this week if they are closing it in April

Or were they really doing anything .?

Wonder how they would respond to a Freedom of Information request

ford fiesta

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120423329#Comment_120423329

for selling it on ?

Greatest Hits Radio UK would sound great on 252

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120423329#Comment_120423329

Things are stranger than I thought, it was off for "maintenance" just 3 days ago 🤔https://twitter.com/2rnNMC/status/1640609225826095104?cxt=HHwWgMC-icHZzsQtAAAA

thesandeman

Some RTE spokesperson on the radio just said they haven't worked on it since 2011 😕🤔

SPDUB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120423457#Comment_120423457

It was also off on I think the day was the 10th of March so 2 days of "maintenance" this month

tinytobe

Interestingly the mast won't be dismantled also the transmitter will stay. It's just going to be switched off.

As far as I know nobody else is interested in taking over.

I take it, there are far too few LW radios around to make anything feasible.

Internet is taking over, and DAB in many other countries, giving just too much choice as opposed to one expensive LW transmission and fewer and fewer listeners.

itsme2

Yes doesn't seem to add up, carrying out maintenance and then stopping service. I think there was a press releases in 2021 when it went off in summer a mention to keep it going for up to 15 years. Will still be costs when off air, can't just leave it there a do nothing, anything open to the elements will still have to be maintained and kept safe, along with insurance costs etc. Maybe rte are hoping for same uproar as last time to get money out of goverment.

When RTE out right lie about this kind of topic, the problem is that journalists don't have the knowledge to challenge them, RTE seem to be saying that an new transmitter is needed, the one they have was only installed in 2007 and has a lifespan of at least 30years. The BBC 198 one is 22 years older and still going

dxhound2005

RTE wanted to close it down for the last 10 years or so. It was the politicians, responding to the protests that forced them to keep it going. It looks as if the politics is going to allow it now. The politics won't allow for any increase in the licence fee though. Last time that happened was in 2008.

tinytobe

As much as I like LW radio, I see no real reason to keep LW radio alive.

LW radios are getting fewer and fewer, except for DXers and enthusiasts.

The intended audience can also no longer be reached, not even the Irish diaspora in the UK tunes into LW.

The overall cost is too high.

The fact that there has been regular and irregular downtime contributed to the idea that the 252 is unreliable.

They should have turned it off years ago.

Also over in the UK, any kind of radio teleswitch service in the UK doesn't justify the transmission cost for BBC Radio 4 on LW as the two things are something different. One is just using the other for the sake of convenience.

Well the first politician has already come out against theclosure https://twitter.com/CharlieFlanagan/status/1641798523032154117?cxt=HHwWisC94dvD68gtAAAA

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120423992#Comment_120423992

Maybe they ( politicians ) should foot the bill personally and not taxpayer or license fee payer money.

Hodges

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120423246#Comment_120423246

That work was to replace damaged insulation links on the stay cables that keep the mast up. Were it not done the mask was a collapse risk.

Glaceon

There was work done a while back supposedly to replace the mast’s baseplate. I wonder if it was actually done, or whether that was just a scream test?

tinytobe

Apparently the mast is there to stay, and won't be taken down.

This is unusual, as most other LW and MW transmitters which were not used anymore were taken down.

Maybe that will come at some point as well.

TAFKAlawhec

Just my €0.02...

* The amount of listeners in the Republic of Ireland to 252 kHz I'd say are very small, given the proliferation of FM, 3G/4G/5G mobile access and other methods for reception indoors (satellite, voice command devices e.g. Alexa, Google Assistant) I'd say the amount of land area where 252 kHz is the only practical option is tiny.

* Given that RTÉ does have a mission to serve the 32 counties on a best effort basis, this does raise some questions concerning reception in parts of Northern Ireland where FM reception is inadequate - in particular, Belfast city centre as well as significant areas of the north & east Antrim coasts where the local glens do work as an effective barrier to FM reception. I presume that unlike when 567 kHz when a solution to improving reception in Belfast was to swap Radio 1 & Lyric FM placing the former on to 87.8 MHz, listeners will be told this time to use IP delivery where practical, or alternative broadcast methods like satellite or cable in homes etc. The same goes for 252 kHz listeners in Britain.

* Regular maintenance to high powered AM broadcast sites aren't unusual - before 24 hour broadcasting they often took place outside broadcasting hours and presumably 2RN weren't going to give their workers any additional unsociable hours money to work on a TX site that wasn't used much by station listeners. Although I'd be very surprised if they didn't schedule some of these closedowns to make a check as to see how many might complain about losing reception, they certainly aren't the only ones (Europe 1 had an "unscheduled" transmitter switch off a few weeks before they shut down 183 kHz permanently as a test to see how many of their listeners were using it).

* The chances of anyone else taking over broadcasting on 252 kHz from Clarkestown are effectively zero. FTR GHR in the UK have been shutting down their MW transmitters where they have overlapping FM transmissions. Even the likes of China Radio International whom as if money was no object were renting airtime on high-powered MW facilities that were no longer being used by local broadcasters gave up on that strategy several years ago. The abject failure of TeamTalk 252 over 20 years ago shown the lack of any real commercial potential in the frequency - and that was back then!

* IMO a two week warning has been given by RTÉ to give enough time for the few listeners of 252 kHz to seek alternative ways to listen while also cock-blocking attempts by certain interests to astroturf reasons as to why it should stay on the air (again, a strategy being used by many broadcasters across Europe in shutting down their LW & MW transmissions).

* Finally, WRT BBC Radio 4's LW service, the LW transmission network is essentially guaranteed for the time being with the GB power companies needing to maintain the Teleswitch service on 198 kHz at least in the short term. However I do wonder how much longer the low power MW fillers (though Lisnagarvey could get away with being called "mid" powered) of BBC R4 LW service will remain on air especially as the BBC have planned to end split FM/LW broadcasts and keep Radio 4 to a single schedule, for example I very much doubt the 774 kHz TX from Enniskillen has even a negligible but notable amount of listeners - in over 30 years I've never seen anyone tune into it to listen to the station on that frequency in the Fermanagh/West Tyrone area except for one time someone had it on their car radio that I seen around 20 years ago.

Timfy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120423329#Comment_120423329

I suppose that depends on how much of your personal information they hold...

They still haven’t taken down the guyed mast in Cork City on the N40 South Ring. It’s been off air since 2008. So I think you can expect the LW mast to be around until whenever there’s a demolition budget.

Maybe they can do them all in one go.

Perhaps the maintenance carried out on 252 revealed some need for a major overhaul that’s just not going to be justifiable?

I wonder why the transmitter isn't going to be demolished, at least not at the moment.

Maybe Paul Rusling has expressed interested in buying it? If that is the case, I can't wait for Music Mann to finally launch! </sarcasm>

I was an avid listener to Atlantic 252 back in the day. Even then I remember going to Power City to buy a new radio with my confirmation money & can clearly recall having to check every model to ensure that it definitely was LW-compatible before going to the counter to buy!

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120425638#Comment_120425638

I am pretty certain there won't be a commercial radio station interested, also no public broadcaster as well.

Taking the mast down costs money, maybe they find somebody in a 3rd world country willing to buy a used transmitter. These things do happen every now and then. I recall the AFN transmitter of 873 from Frankfurt Germany was sold to somewhere in the Baltics back in the days when they closed down.

I recall, even back in the 80ies not every radio had LW. One had to specifically look for a LW radio. However reception was pretty easy but even that wasn't a plus. In the late 90ies Atlantic 252 had problems with listening figures etc... but was still widely known.

Fact is, any kind of AM radio is going to be phased out and closed down all across Europe. I wonder how long Poland and Romania will be on LW on air ? It's quite possible that they will be next, even before BBC Radio 4 on LW.

I suppose Morocco and Algeria will stay on air the longest? At least in Algeria I would see the necessity to cover the desert in some way.

TAFKAlawhec

I wonder if the planning permission that was granted for the erection of the mast that was for the then "Radio Tara" project back in the 80's required its removal once it was deemed to be no longer suitable for broadcasting, especially when you consider the local opposition to its building back then? That's not mentioning the potential liabilities that 2RN or RTÉ would potentially incur were there to be a catastrophic failure of the mast if left sitting idle, rusting away and causing injury or damage to third parties?

Not being familiar with the area surrounding the 252 kHz transmission station, I also wonder if there's any value in selling the land that the station is on for something like a housing development, as has been the case for at least a couple of former MW transmitter sites in Britain?

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120425993#Comment_120425993

I've once visited the site of Atlantic 252 with a friend of mine. We were outside of the house but we didn't go in. The house looked like a typical older country house in Ireland of somebody of a better social standing back when it was built. The place was difficult to find, at at time when sat-nav wasn't in use and even the exactness of maps wasn't even enough. The transmitter was visible from a distance, however hedges on the side of the road and narrow winding roads made it difficult to get there. This was back in the late 90ies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rby1tfEvIf0

and:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdeFTOjkpzY

@tinytobe

@tinytobe

Guaranteed there will never be any new stations successfully launching on LW. Atlantic 252 lasted just over 12 years. MusicMann 279 never launched in spite of all the hype. TeamTalk barely saw out the 2002 World Cup. There was a pirate on 261 kHz which appeared a couple of times in 2016 that hasn't been heard since. Most recently was AM Radio Italia which tried a handful of LW test transmissions but appear to have abandoned that in favour of MW & SW.

I remember buying a Philips radio in favour of a Panasonic, the latter of which only covered FM & MW. "FM has better sound quality" said the sales guy in the shop. "Yeh, but the station I want to listen to is on longwave!" I said. Atlantic 252 was playing the music I wanted to listen to at the time & that was that.

I used to listen to UK radio via medium & long wave up until not that long ago. My satellite TV tuner has been doing that job for more than half a decade. Except for Manx Radio which I still listen to via traditional means.

I don't think Medi 1 from Morocco will stay on the air for much longer. Their website no longer mentions 171 kHz. Also as far as I am aware they are a commercial station owned by a group of investors as opposed to a state broadcaster with a public service obligation so as soon as the LW outlet stops making money it's gone.

Polski Radio 1 retained their LW service as it carried the national parliament coverage. I don't know whether or not that program has since been made available on FM. They also use it more recently to broadcast external content aimed at Belarus, Russia & Ukraine. But then again Radio Poland is also being re-broadcast from Radio Baltic Waves in Lithuania on MW so maybe the Polish Tx could also be regarded as redundant.

There is a lot of debate about the future of AM. Some senators & congressmen in the US are pushing for it to be made mandatory in new cars sold. Personally I think MW & SW will be around for a while yet in some form or other at least, but the possibility of any new stations launching on LW is realistically somewhere between zero & a negative number...

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120426027#Comment_120426027

I think the initial idea of Atlantic 252 was to service the UK market not the Irish market. In the beginning there were probably still a lot of LW radios around, people still had them back when BBC Radio 2 was on LW and the Light Programme before that.

MW radio will stay a bit longer in the US, but in Canada there are also frequent closures of MW transmitters and transfers from AM to an FM license.

Radio was also different back then. In many European countries the future of radio seems to be something like webstreams which are transmitted on DAB and the expectation of the listener is simply choice. Choice is only either on the web or on DAB. The UK is very much like that on the commercial side of radio and Germany is doing similar things.

Back in the days I've often read about MusicMan 279 but that was about it. Don't know if there was anything I could call hype but those interested in radio knew about MusicMan. There were articles of diesel generators making too much noise or possibly too much noise to power the transmitter and all sorts of other excuses. And even back then, one had to specifically look for a LW radio. Why MusicMan 279 never went on air, I never knew. Most likely it was financial and expectation of low listenership.

@tinytobe

@tinytobe

As far as I am aware, Music Mann never owned any hardware at all. There were indeed rumours that it was just a front for money laundering or something like that. The crossed-field antenna that they intended to use only existed in a draughtsman's office. What the diesel generators were actually powering is anyone's guess. I think Chris Cary from the original Radio Nova (I lived only a few hundred yards from Green Acres Country Club in Ballyboden) was involved in the venture in its early stages but there were seemingly a lot of disagreements as regards the politics of how the station should be run.

Mainland Europe? Well, many of them abandoned AM a long time ago. Then again we do have Bretagne 5, Radio Malta along with Portugal, Romania & Spain, along with Radio Vaticana on SW. Not dead yet.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120425993#Comment_120425993

Its in the absolute middle of nowhere, so there won't be any value for housing.

The Beaumont MW site has been built on, though.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120425542#Comment_120425542

FOI does not (solely) refer to your personal information, you are thinking of a Subject Access Request under data protection regulations.

As a public body, RTE are covered by FOI regulations and need to reveal anything that isn't commercially sensitive or personal info of someone else. What is considered commercially sensitive can be a huge range.

TAFKAlawhec

There are still certain parts of the world where keeping AM broadcasting at least in the short term makes sense, for example the ABC local radio network which covers vast swathes of regional & outback parts of Australia that a replacement FM network would be prohibitively expensive in terms of matching coverage - I never really understood why the 120/60 metre SW relays of ABC local radio for the Northern Territory was shuttered at the same time as the Radio Australia SW transmissions also ended other than cost from somewhere/one in an urban office in Sydney or Melbourne deciding to do so as nothing was in place that could replace this coverage on a traveling basis, and the service appeared to have its users. But in most of the rest of the world its in terminal decline. Even in Australia the traditional local broadcasters on MW frequencies have been slowly but steadily "converting" to FM (not as politically or commercially risky as most commercial stations outside urban Australia don't usually run much power beyond 2kW, exceptions being 4KZ in Queensland and 2WEB in New South Wales both of whom will likely remain on AM for some time to come). As Tinytobe has mentioned, even in the vastness of Canada MW stations there have been looking to switch to FM where practical or be given permission to lower their ERPs, while in the biggest of them all - Russia - there's hardly any MW radio left (or at least there was until a few mothballed stations were powered up again as a partial psyop operation), over nine years ago the state owned stations essentially left LW & MW quite suddenly with little notice. That sort of leaves the USA, but other than maybe the ten best listened to AM stations in the country, mainly the big metropolis-based stations on clear-channel frequencies, AM listening figures are essentially in freefall and have been for many years now - the stations that used to occupy local "superbowl" frequencies with up to 1kW ERP output are now either networked or operated brokered only with no or very little locally produced output. Even the mighty WINS 1010 New York has bit the bullet and is now available on a high-powered FM frequency in the city.

Meanwhile in Europe, the trend is in most countries for broadcast radio to be delivered via FM and/or DAB. Commercial AM radio is with some very few exceptions dead in the continent - the likes of COPE & SER in Spain have been reducing TX ERPs and are not replacing some transmitters that go faulty (though the state owned RNE is still committed to MW for the foreseeable future AFAIK), Romania is still busy on LW & MW but from what I see all stations are owned by their Radio Romania PSB with all commercial outlets on FM, a few Ukrainian & Russian AM transmitters have been fired up again (though how effective they actually are to get people to tune into them is another thing), you have a couple of high powered AM transmitters in Estonia & Lithuania that are largely aimed towards Russian speaking audiences, you have the BBC & local radio stations in the UK that are in the middle of a decommissioning plan for MW & LW, you have some low-powered semi-hobby broadcasters (notably in Italy & Netherlands) and that's really it. Here in Ireland, you have Spirit Radio whom are supposed to be broadcasting on 549 kHz but have seem to have given up on this (given that they're supposedly on a MW licence with FM "relays", I wonder why the BCI haven't hauled them over the coals yet on this?) while you have two full-time unlicenced radio stations in Radio North & Radio Star Country that although are still going, have in terms of programme output have seen better days - they seem to be largely funded these days by renting airtime to Evangelical Protestant programme makers with a small bit of advertising, outside of these hours the music is mostly automated with the odd show either live or recorded (Radio North don't even bother ID'ing themselves much of the time, and their webstream is no longer working). But as they're on the MW band, aimed at NI audience so aren't trying to attract southern advertising, and as their programming content doesn't seem to cause much fuss to licenced broadcasters on both sides of the border, they're tolerated for now.

Ger Roe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120425542#Comment_120425542

FOI requests are not restricted to personal information aspects.

Does anyone else find it disturbing that RTE are trying to put a climate change and woke spin on closing LW ? One RTE executive said "it's a changed world since 2014, that was before smartspeakers, marriage equality and repeal of the 8th"

tinytobe

The interesting thing is, all of the more recent LW shutdowns happened rather quickly.

RTL 234 was off the air within a couple of months of announcement, Iceland was taken off air within 2 weeks including the taking down of the mast, and now RTE made an announcement within short notice.

Just wondering how quickly BBC Radio 4 on LW will go, same as Romania and Poland. Who will be next?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120427275#Comment_120427275

One thing unique about the BBC's local AM shutdowns was that they had a retune to FM message on a loop for about 2 months which I thought was overkill

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120427347#Comment_120427347

The BBC has a bit more money, hence the longer time for a message on a loop.

However the cost of energy isn't going down and will most likely remain high. And from a commercial aspect DAB is too profitable. I am wondering why Smooth radio is still on AM in the UK.

Declan A Walsh

I don’t fancy quoting large passages where I am interested in particular sections – hard to edit – so I am copying and pasting

@rathfanhamlad: There was a pirate on 261 kHz which appeared a couple of times in 2016 that hasn't been heard since. 

What was the name of this long wave pirate and where did it operate from? Was it automated or did it have any live broadcasts?

@TAFKAlawhec: Here in Ireland, you have Spirit Radio whom are supposed to be broadcasting on 549 kHz but have seem to have given up on this (given that they're supposedly on a MW licence with FM "relays", I wonder why the BCI haven't hauled them over the coals yet on this?) while you have two full-time unlicenced radio stations in Radio North & Radio Star Country that although are still going, have in terms of programme output have seen better days - they seem to be largely funded these days by renting airtime to Evangelical Protestant programme makers with a small bit of advertising, outside of these hours the music is mostly automated with the odd show either live or recorded (Radio North don't even bother ID'ing themselves much of the time, and their webstream is no longer working). But as they're on the MW band, aimed at NI audience so aren't trying to attract southern advertising, and as their programming content doesn't seem to cause much fuss to licenced broadcasters on both sides of the border, they're tolerated for now.

There are some other MW pirates still around. One of the more notable ones is the Dublin-based weekend oldies pirate Energy Power AM. It is mainly automated but does have some live broadcasts.

I wonder is this the final nail in the coffin for RTE on LW after a number of delays. I suspect that the time has come now. How many people do actually listen to Radio 1 on LW, whether here or in the UK?