Provincial Squads - Categorising Players

Brief_Lives

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120407502#Comment_120407502

Even though they all are our European players.and have proved themselves.

Maybe there are other rules I haven't read.

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120407771#Comment_120407771

If you disqualify everyone whose last name begins with M, Kelleher _might_ get in the top 3

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120408710#Comment_120408710

i think being the sub hooker at club level disqualifies someone from the top tier but when its leinster you could make a case that would be an unfair metric.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120407778#Comment_120407778

he is fantastic in the loose, i cant argue on that

is he in the top 3 looseheads in the world right now? i wouldnt think so to be honest

is he irelands best player? i also wouldnt think so. he might be the best ball carrier

pickarooney

Apart from fitness/endurance and possibly jackalling I don't think there's any area of the game where Porter is (near) the best in his position.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120409437#Comment_120409437

Youll be hard pressed to find a better open field scramble defender in his position in the world. His decision making and positional cover is exceptional. The amount of times hes been the tackler after a line break is ridiculous for a loose head prop.

arsebiscuits1

Without weighting what each player brings in great detail I think there is an argument that Porter brings the best all around game of any loosehead prop currently playing.

Endurance and accuracy under fatigue are both things he brings in spades. Ireland had the best ball retention of any team recently and topped the charts in ruck speeds. You can only get these with strong rucking performances especially from your tight 5.

I think his scrummaging prowess is way overstated. Ireland do not and have not attacked opposition scrums under Farrell. It's a launch play and nothing further. The way the game is going this will be more and more prevalent and props like Porter become even more invaulable.

We conceded 6 scrum penalties this championship. And I don't recall many of them being on our own put in. There were certainly some free kick concessions.

If he played for a different team, he'd get some extra kgs on and that would help him greatly.

So what we have in Porter is a very capable scrummager who is rarely dominated who can also perform for 80 minutes in a test game.

Yes Genge, Baille, Kitshoff are probably more destructive scrummagers, and the former 2 are better in the loose with ball in hand. But does that make them emphatically better than Porter? Not by much IMO.

Looking at this page and comparing some stats https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/statistics/

Porter carried less than Genge and Baille and averaged 1m less per carry. But Genge and Baille are particularly destructive there. Hence why their carrying numbers were so much higher.

Interestingly Porter had 66 and 82 more minutes than Genge and Baille respectively despite all 3 starting every game. A telling number of his fitness and ability to last. Even discounting the Scotland full 80 he had to play he still averaged more than 10 minutes more on a team that had the highest ball in play time.

Tackle stats were all roughly the same. Penalty count was very high for Porter and he was the only one with turnovers to his name which is where the raw stats there don't tell you everything.

Porters defensive ruck work is top class for a loosehead and better than any of his peers. His ability to slow the ball down is vital and frees up players elsewhere. Yes he didn't get this always correct and did get pinged a lot (most notably against Wales with 6 - some of which were harsh) but it's what you live with when you allow a player be that disruptive.

Overall I think there is a very very strong argument that Porter is in the top 3 in the world in his position.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120407774#Comment_120407774

Who are the three 12s in world rugby who are better than Robbie Henshaw?

I think the best 12s in the game today are Gael Fickou and Robbie Henshaw, and after that it's debatable. For me, Henshaw is a better player than De Allende, Danty etc.

There is no way JGP and James Ryan (at their best) are any lower than where they are - James Ryan was the best second row in the 6 Nations this year (and IMO should have been player of the championship).

If I was ranking global scrum halves I'd have Dupont on a tier by himself, then Aaron Smith. After that it's a steep fall off to the next guys which is a tier that to me includes JGP, Faf du Klerk, TJ Parenara and not a lot else. It's a position where there aren't many elite players by comparison to times past.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120410926#Comment_120410926

Fickou for sure. I prefer Danty also and then maybe Henshaw. As for Ryan, he was world class in 2018, imo and is now. World class can change year on year VDF has been for 2 years. McCaw was for most of his career as was Hooper. Olivon is world class, my opinion.

Porter in my opinion is near. He's not due to his scrummaging. That's his only weakness.

France have several world class players. Yet they were runners up. I'd think that a squad with top end international quality is superior.

On France, Ramos, Penaud, Fickou, Danty, Dupont, Baille. Olivon and Flament would be world class. Forgot Marchand. They all are superb players. Still, we beat them!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120411177#Comment_120411177

On France, Ramos, Penaud, Fickou, Danty, Dupont, Baille. Olivon and Flament would be world class. Forgot Marchand. They all are superb players. Still, we beat them!

I wouldn't necessarily agree on all those names - Ramos and Flament had great championships but weren't even sure of their places in the French side coming in to tournament.

What I would say is, for all the players you mentioned (except Dupont & Penaud) we have a player almost as good, as good, or better in some cases.

Ramos - Keenan is better

Fickou - Ringrose is broadly at the same level

Danty - I think Henshaw is better

Baille - Porter is broadly at the same level

Ollivon - JVDF is better

Flament - Ryan & Beirne are both better

Most would have ranked Aldritt as one of their best players too coming into this, he started poorly but finished very strongly but equally, Doris at his best is at least his equal IMO.

It's not that hard to see why we're where we are and why we're viewed as genuine contenders. Dupont is the difference maker for them - he's that bit of stardust that no one else has right now. Without him - we'd beat them in a RWC QF and we might even with him.

Comparing across teams isn't pointless, but it has limited scope in my opinion. A players characteristics and attributes might thrive in a specific role for a specific team but not fully translate and a few % off top performance can be quite a lot in real terms. We've seen plenty of players change teams and not replicate form or go the other way and become much more effective.

For example - I don't think Fickou would be able to do the job for Ireland that Ringrose does, in the same way that Porter wouldn't duplicate Baille's impact.

From an Ireland point of view, I think we've finally really tailored a gameplan that fits the type of players we typically produce. Schmidt got the ball rolling by making us a detailed and well drilled team, seems to suit Ireland to have that kind of certainty. Farrell has mixed in just enough chaos and an ability to be unpredictable that has taken us to another level.

I wouldn't be terribly surprised if a lot of this current squad weren't as impressive playing for other international sides.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120410926#Comment_120410926

I personally think Ryan is slightly overrated. He plays a role in the ireland team which is hard to replace but i’d consider Beirne a clearly better if different player. Ditto but way more for JGP. I think he is super overblown as a reason for ireland’s success. Guys like Lowe are more important imo.

Henshaw has barely played recently, i just don’t think he can be rated that highly while not playing. I also would put him and aki closer than general consensus. I also prefer Danty there.

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120412241#Comment_120412241

Beirne is very good. He does the highlight reel plays. Ryan hits rucks and is a better defender. He's the grafted. They compliment each other. They are our 2 best.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120412452#Comment_120412452

i think this is very true, the balance they provide together works so well. same with the backrow, POM might not always stand out but generally what he does allows VDF and Doris to be more effective at their roles

Interested Observer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120412241#Comment_120412241

What are your thoughts on what happened in the Scotland game when JGP came on?

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120412802#Comment_120412802

I thought he increased the pace nicely. I’m very interested in how he gets on without sexton behind him.

Dave_The_Sheep

I'd be more interested in how Ross B continues with JGP in front of him.

arsebiscuits1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120412802#Comment_120412802

Or the South Africa game.

I don't think JGP is Ireland greatest 9 nor in the conversation of world class.

But he is one of those players that benefits from a coach and the coach benefits from their ability. It's a relationship that just clicks. Every coach has those players.

I don't agree with uu20s point of being overblown, the proof is in the pudding. You don't get continued success with a passenger at halfback. Any great team with sustained success and form in recent years has had an influential half back pairing.

JGPs ability to take weight off the 10 is what he brings so well. I don't think he's an additional playmaker like Ringrose, Keenan and Hansen have been. But he is a decision maker with a really good knack for picking the right one at the right time.

His ability to manage the tempo of the game is also very tuned in.

Paul Smeenus

We did pretty well with Murray this 6N. Especially the France game, which was one of the best test games I've ever seen. So I'd agree that JGP's importance is overblown - and no-one has said he's a passenger.

arsebiscuits1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120414423#Comment_120414423

You wont find me disagreeing with Murrays ability. And we played fantastically with him against France. We also much improved against Italy when he came on.

But the proof is still in the pudding. A solid chunk of our best rugby under Farrell has been with JGP on the pitch and I think his influence on how we play is far greater than people are giving him credit for.

.... and why are you singling out one use of the word passenger? I didn't call him it either. If you're looking for perceived implication behind the word there is none there. It's a mere statement

aloooof

JGP has bad a brilliant 12 months or so (probably his best in an Ireland shirt, even with some injuries), but I'd still rate Faf and Perenara ahead of him tbh. They've performed over a longer period, imo.

I think one problem with lists like this (apart from their subjectivity) is that there are tiers within tiers. Like if we grant JGP is in the Elite International and Murray is in the Proven International / European Cup level, then JGP is near the bottom of that ranking and Murray near the top imo.

And form is a huge factor. Picking a specific example, JOD is not having a good season, but not a top URC level player (but Conor Oliver is?). Not for me.

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120414557#Comment_120414557

Fair enough. I thought it seemed like a bit of a strawman, in that no-one else had accused JGP of being a passenger, but I'll happily put my hands up if I read too much into it. I certainly agree with the statement.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120414719#Comment_120414719

Yeah, form is obviously a huge factor though. I had a look at this just on the Leinster squad over the past 7 or 8 seasons (haven't concluded the work) but you can see guys progress (and in some cases regress) season by season. Garry Ringrose is a guy who has probably climbed a tier each season recently.

Yeah, it's possible I've overrated Conor Oliver there, but I don't think there is a whole lot between him and JOD, and Oliver has had the better season IMO.

The gap between JGP and Murray isn't that narrow at this point now; notwithstanding Murray's good performances in the 6N. Obviously Murray at his best was World Class at reached levels JGP has never and likely will never get to, but for the past couple of seasons JGP is significantly better than Murray.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120409437#Comment_120409437

I think it would be perfectly fair to say that Porter is the best Rugby player in his position by a decent margin.

By "Rugby player" I mean those skills that every player should have - Catch/pass , defence , attack , positioning and overall fitness.

If you look at the explicit position specific skills , he would only be at the fringes of the Top tier but as an overall player in terms of total contribution to the game as it is currently played he is absolutely at or near the top.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120415490#Comment_120415490

He's one of the best players in his position in the world, and as much as he's down the pecking order in terms of certain aspects of his game, he does those things for longer and with increasing impact as the game goes on. He used to be a lot bigger, his physique now doesn't allow him to play as destructively, but at times it's like having another flanker on the pitch. Suits Ireland's game plan perfectly.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120415760#Comment_120415760

Agree completely.

10+ years ago , he likely wouldn't have been considered "Top Tier" because pure destructive scrummaging played a far larger role in the game than it does today although to your point , he could have kept the bulk and been more effective if required.

But in terms of the game today and how Ireland are playing it , I wouldn't dream of swapping him for any other player out there.