What would our infrastructure look like if we had stayed in the UK?

JohnnyChimpo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120436549#Comment_120436549

Embarrassing stuff

dublincc2

Would the UK have developed large housing estates like Coolock, Ballyfermot or Tallaght or would they have built more high-rise estates like Ballymun? Tower blocks are extremely prolific in GB suburbs.

If we look at how post-war Britain developed in terms of housing there were many experimental schemes such as 'New Towns', Milton Keynes being a prominent example. Would Ireland have had any of these built? There was a half-arsed attempt at such a development in Craigavon but it was a complete failure.

Sam Russell

Well, we had the Tenters development in Dublin 8 built with the last of the British money a hundred years ago. It was an interesting development in that it was for local working families on a 40 year rent to buy system. Quite an innovation at the time. Many renters were in tenements at the time but were given a whole house, but had to be local and be in employment to qualify..

Two stories were on the TV about it. One where the rent collector set up to collect the rent, and the new tenant came to pay the rent and after a few weeks asked when the other family would be moving in. Rent collector answered - 'There is no other family - the whole house is yours'. The second story was the long term tenant called to pay the rent, and was told there is no rent due - you have paid the last instalment - the house is yours - you have paid the forty years term.

The other development of interest was Marino in Dublin which was also based on the garden city idea of the 1920s. A great success but not copied.

The UK built huge housing estates like Ballyfermot following WW II to replace the wholesale destruction caused by the blitz, and for the huge population explosion - referred to by many as the baby boomers. The high rise blocks came later, and then the UK stopped building council houses under Thatcher - never to start again.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120435310#Comment_120435310

I'm fairly sure they mean car, not horse. Most UK (car) race tracks are ex airfields.

The Royal Flying Corps did build airfields here in WWI, Dublin Airport is on one of them; but nowhere near as many as ended up in GB by the end of WWII. Three in Dublin - Collinstown (Dublin Airport), Baldonnel (still there), Tallaght (Amazon data centre + Airton business park) and a handful around the country.

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120475368#Comment_120475368

Of those three would Collinstown have been chosen as the site for the international airport if we stayed in the Union or is it conceivable that Dublin Airport could have been located in Baldonnel or Tallaght in this alternate timeline?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120475694#Comment_120475694

Looking at what's happened in the UK, its quite plausible that there'd have been two or more airports in Dublin - probably the two furthest away from each other so Collinstown and Tallaght. Shannon or equivalent would also still have happened; to reduce flight distance across the Atlantic.

Multiple airports in a small to mid size city is a Very Bad Thing - you end up with a fraction of the total route count, duplicated and split across the two airports. Hence why Belfast hasn't got service to the US or the Middle East; and barely has service on non low cost carriers to anywhere.

dublincc2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120475705#Comment_120475705

Really? Two airports in Dublin? Manchester doesn't even have that. Outside of London the only city with two airports I can think of is Glasgow and even there Prestwick is hardly used anymore.

Baldonnel would probably be retained by the RAF and basically be Dublin's Northolt.

I assume Cork Airport would have been built in the same location under the UK?

Another interesting question is would there be more investment into regional airports, such as runway extensions at Waterford, Galway, Sligo and Donegal? Something that is still being suggested today.

Larbre34

Its a fairly pointless debate considering divergence took place over 100 years ago.

The only parallel that can be drawn is how the other nations of the UK and the regional cities thereof have been looked after and the answer is, they haven't.

Even Northern Ireland; it got a few motorways in the 70s and 80s as a public works stimulus, but that's where investment largely ended. Its rail network, such as it is, is shite. Same goes for Scotrail.

So many British cities I've been to are poverty riven kips that seem like they've scarcely recovered from the bombing of WWII 80 years ago, it makes me think Ireland may actually be a damn sight worse off, infrastructurally, if we'd remained as a hind tit of a decaying and decrepit Britain.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120475694#Comment_120475694

I think there's much more at stake than the location of the airport. If we had stayed in the UK Dublin would never have become a capital city - it would have been a provincial UK city - and this would obviously have affected its development. Demand for air travel would likely have developed more slowly, and to a lower level. Plus, there would have been no state-owned Irish airline to base its operations at Dublin airport (or any Irish airport).

So, whether at Collinstown, Baldonnell or elsewhere, Dublin airport would likely have happened later, developed more slowly, and not be as big. Things like direct translanatic flights from Dublin (or any Irish airport) might have been later to arrive.

Sam Russell

I think it more likely that Shannon Airport would have been in Co. Limerick - between Limerick and Cork. I believe that was the original plan as there is a good space for it. Shannon was needed to be a stepping off point for trans Atlantic flights - early range was a serious question. Remember, Foynes was an airport for a while for the flying boats.

Remember Dev was a TD for Claire.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120475756#Comment_120475756

Belfast. Sheffield for a time. Also Manchesters coverage area has Liverpool, Leeds and other airports that wouldn't exist in most other countries

Cork would probably have been at Fermoy RFC base and Galway would likely have stayed at the Oranmore RFC base rather than moving to the constrained Carnmore site. It might still be operating if it hadn't moved.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120412281#Comment_120412281

Just on a metro and something I can't back up.

Many years ago I was interviewing a relative of the poet Padraig Collum, he is long since dead but he was an engineer by profession and worked on developing a metro for Dublin in his time. He said it was very quickly apparent that the soils under Dublin and the Liffey rendered them unsuitable for tunneling with the contemporary engineering abilities.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438545#Comment_120438545

Not sure Shannon would exist at all. The UK government probably would not have seen connectivity of the Midwest as a big issue for investment the way the Irish government did.

As for a Dublin Underground mentioned earlier the UK only has 3 and the sites of Glasgow and Newcastle make no sense demographically so it's probably a lottery as to whether or not Dublin got one. Probably would have gotten the current commuter train line and Dart+ a lot quicker though just looking at Belfast as an example. Same goes for Cork where we are playing catch-up.

Sam Russell

Prestwick could substitute for a west of Ireland airport to allow flights across the Atlantic, but the jet soon rendered it redundant anyway.

I doubt that Ireland would have been a priority for UK infrastructure of any real value for the population in the interwar years, particularly if the pursuit of independence had continued - which it would have.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476024#Comment_120476024

Shannon Airport only exists because it replaced Foynes, as the need arose to service regular aircraft rather than flying boats. Under a British administration it might not have been built at all or (more likely) it would have closed or downgraded once there was no longer an operational requirement for transatlantic flights to refuel in Ireland. The customs-free airport would likely never have happened.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120476383#Comment_120476383

One thing we can be pretty certain of is Monsignor Horan would be up in court for planning violations.

AnFearCeart

Interesting thread. Some things would have been quite different under British rule if they were still overlords today. For starters, one-off rural housing would be non-existent in Ireland today, so we'd probably resemble alot more of rural England with hamlets and market towns more akin to where we started under their rule. I think that alone would have shaped the direction of the country alot differently to an alternative outcome than we see today.

North and West of a Limerick to Derry line would be left in almost total wilderness akin to the Islands and Highlands of Scotland, with Galway probably being developed for tourism and a gateway town to the rugged west - Clifden and Westport a twin westerly destination.

Cork would have been an interesting observation - would it have evolved to become a major oil terminal for the "British Isles" akin to southern Wales?

Airports and their development would be different too, Shannon would be still with us, but Cork and Knock wouldn't be.

Also, would be how the original A5 get to Dublin quicker. Would it be Motorway from Holyhead to the M25? Food has to move fast.

Kermit.de.frog

Interestly, Lloyd George presented Micheal Collins with a map of an underground for Dublin during the treaty negotiations the Brits would fund at once should things turn out differently.

The point made earlier about the airports is particularly acute. Dublin handles 10 million more passengers per year than Manchester. It is an absolute certainty the reverse would be true if under the UK.

We'd have what Belfast has - a 100% privately owned shed as a main airport. No Aer Lingus, No Ryanair blah blah

I would go as afar as to suggest the aviation industry built in this country is one of our greatest achievements and just wouldn't have happend under UK rule.

It would be pretty desolate

As for the roads - we would have got earlier motorways but nowhere near as extensive as they are today.

Sam Russell

Not sure about one-off housing.

There is a huge difference in Ireland to the UK in that the land acts transferred ownership of land away from the large land owners to the tenants so the right to build would go with that.

Most farmers in the UK are tenants whereas in Ireland, they own their land.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120479832#Comment_120479832

I wouldn't put too much hope into anything Lloyd George said "might happen if we stayed"

Zebra3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120480206#Comment_120480206

Yep, just look at how the Border Commission worked out.

CrabRevolution

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120480206#Comment_120480206

Anyone remember David Cameron's promise of Scotland getting "The most powerful devolved parliament in the world" if they voted no to independence?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120479763#Comment_120479763

There was lots of publicly-funded rural housing built in in Ireland in the last few decades of British rule, and most of it was isolated houses, each associated with its own farm, rather than housing clustered in villages and towns. This was regarded as more efficient (each farmer on his own land), given the model of land purchase and distribution the Land Commission was following. Housing for landless farm labourers was similarly scattered.

This policy might have changed in later years if British rule had continued. On the other hand, it might not.

bk

“We'd have what Belfast has - a 100% privately owned shed as a main airport. No Aer Lingus, No Ryanair blah blah”

Also Ireland as a world leader in aircraft leasing. This is a very large and profitable industry for Ireland, that many people aren’t aware of. It would never have been allowed to happen under British rule.

Franky a lot of the very smart, pro business moves that the Irish government made over the last decades, would likely never have been allowed, Shannon economic zone, Duty free shopping, IFSC, low corporate tax rates, etc.

bk

I think an important point that the OP misses, is just how broke Britain has been over the last 100 years.

Sure the 1700’s and 1800’s we a great time of growth for the British, with the Industrial Revolution and the empire, but the last 100 years have largely been an economic disaster for them, with them mostly coasting on what they gained from the centuries before.

Think about it, we start in 1922, the interwar years, Britain is recovering after the horrors of WW1, the British empire is collapsing and The Great Recession is happening. Very little money available to invest in infrastructure in England, never mind Ireland.

WW2 happens and obviously any infrastructure plans are cancelled and all investment goes into the war.

Post WW2, the British empire has totally collapsed and they are dealing with the horrors of WW2, many dead and disabled. Many of their cities destroyed. Through the 50’s and 60’s what little money is left, goes into rebuilding destroyed British cities, just basic housing. But more emphasis is rightfully given to supporting the survivors of the war, creating the NHS, social housing, etc.

Only in the 70’s do things start to look up, when they find oil and gas in the North Sea, but unlike Norway, the Tories waste it mostly lining their own pockets, rather then investing it in the country. What little investment happens, is mostly directed at the South of England. Very little makes its way to the rest of the union. And then you have the likes of the coal miner strikes, etc.

The UK literally only made the last payment for its WW2 loans to the US in 2006!

The last 100 years really haven’t been economically kind to the British and now they have gone and done Brexit. While the first few decades certainly weren’t great for us, I think we can easily now see that we very much dodged a bullet by not being part of the UK. We now have the fastest growing economy in Europe, while the British Economy is actually shrinking!

Guildenstern

Motorways would have arrived a lot quicker, and you'd think more urbanisation. Think Sligo, with a population of 19,000 probably would be double that.

Not just physical infrastructure but social services structure and that includes a proper local authority and social service structure. Less reliance on charities run by volunteers which have developed from the 1940s or so onwards, and more professional state support services. You'd see that in the UK and Europe whereas Ireland seems very much a poor relation in that area.

Podge_irl

UK social services are absolutely falling apart and they rely on an absolute legion of charity run food banks among other charity driven programmes. That is just incredibly wrong.

CrabRevolution

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120483665#Comment_120483665

There's no guarantee our motorways would have arrived at all, never mind quicker. Look at a map of the UK motorway network; Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are pretty sparsely covered with motorways. Waterford (pop 82,000) has a Motorway connection but Aberdeen (pop 400'000) and Derry (pop 200'000) don't.

The map on wikipedia for UK motorways actually has most of Scotland and Northern Ireland cropped out because there's simply no motorways to show there: List of motorways in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

breezy1985

I think too many people compare their small little part of Ireland to London, Liverpool, Leeds etc.

My experience of England outside London was all roughly 90k cities which ironically is exactly the size of my home city Limerick.

Comparing the 2 I am very thankful for independence even if it took a bit of time to get there. We go on about their better public transport but again in those cities it's crap and a privatized mess. Cars are felt to be required same as here.

Certain things are better like I'de rather spend my money on council tax over private health insurance and GPs but their overly planned cities have been franchised into oblivion.

Guildenstern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120483782#Comment_120483782

I was alluding to the UK social services structure set up from the post war period onwards. Yes, certainly they have been decimated this last decade, of that there is no doubt, but a direct comparison across both countries over the years, the UK is a country mile ahead. Health, housing, local authority set up. If you've no experience of both jurisdictions, I would offer the direct experiences of examples in Ireland with families with disabled members, and the direct experiences of their equivalents in the UK.