Should Ireland ditch daylight savings regardless of what the UK and NI do?

the_amazing_raisin

It's that time of year again when everyone wakes up on Sunday morning and tries to remember how to change the oven clock 😁

There was a survey in Europe several years ago about getting rid of daylight savings. The majority of responses were in favour of discontinuing it

However the results were criticised because 70% of the responses were from Germany

The Irish government has also been reluctant to get rid of daylight savings since it would create two time zones on the island?

On the other hand polling among Irish people was generally in favour of abolishing daylight savings

So if it were to result in a time difference between ROI and NI/UK for 6 months of the year, should we go ahead and abolish daylight savings?

Or should we keep it to stay aligned to the UK?

Or option 3, should we align to Central European time? It would result in much darker mornings (~9am sunrise in December), but longer evenings for the whole year (sunset pints at 10pm in June)

EDIT: For the removal of doubt, I'm going to clarify the options:

Removing daylight savings would result in us being aligned to UTC time all year around (brighter mornings, shorter evenings all year)

Aligning to CET would result in us being UTC+1 all year around to be the same as Western Europe (darker mornings, longer evenings all year)

There is also a fourth option of being aligned to European Summer time (UTC+2) but this is possibly too extreme a change

I also can't edit the Poll after posting anyway 😅

the_amazing_raisin

I'll start with the disclaimer that I think daylight savings isn't relevant anymore and should be abolished regardless of what the UK decides

I would also generally be in favour of moving to CET for the longer evenings, particularly in winter. It would give kids a bit more sunlight time after school to play outside

I think it would also be better for motorists since they'd be travelling home in brighter hours. On the flip side however they'd be driving to work in darkness, so probably an even trade

Chris_5339762

The trouble is, during the winter there simply aren't enough hours of brightness. Theres really only about 8.

I don't think any government here would go against what the UK/NI do. An hours difference between north and south will never, ever happen. It'd be just as likely as GB being on one time and NI being on another.

dxhound2005

The idea is to do away with clock changes, to facilitate business. It has nothing to do with making countries align to any given time zone. That is an entirely national decision. No matter what happens, there will be days in the year in Ireland with 16 hours light, and other days with 16 hours darkness. No amount of tinkering with the clock can change that.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396312#Comment_120396312

I agree the government will likely stay aligned to the UK, unless the UK went for different time zones across GB and NI (unlikely)

The question of winter sunlight has always been one of how to best use a limited resource. As you correctly stated, with only 8 hours, it's not really a lot of daylight to use

The general intent of daylight savings seems to be to give longer evenings in summer and brighter mornings in winter

While a worthwhile goal, I think in modern society those have become somewhat irrelevant since our commuting distances have grown so large as to make the brighter mornings nonexistent

Also put work life balance has gotten pretty off skew resulting in people often working outside the typical 9-5 schedule

So personally, I think the best way to spend the daylight hours is to make evenings longer throughout the year. I agree 5pm sunset in December isn't much of an evening, but it will at least give school kids some outdoors time

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396386#Comment_120396386

I could argue then that aligning to CET would be the best case for that 😉

I 100% agree that you can't magically make days longer, but it's a question of how you spend the daylight

As I said, I think brighter evenings are better than brighter mornings, but that's just my opinion, I concede that it won't suit everyone

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396439#Comment_120396439

Time zones are an artifical construct, but they do have a sort of basic attachment to longitude. Every 15 degrees west or east is an hour of daylight/darkness difference. You would be aligning the west of Ireland with the east of Poland which is about 35 degrees difference.

Icemancometh

Secret option 4. Keep daylight savings, but bring forward the hour change to February from March.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396478#Comment_120396478

Some people just want to watch the world burn 😉

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396461#Comment_120396461

Arguably working 9-5 is an artificial construct anyway 😁

Western Spain is at a similar longitude, so it isn't totally bonkers

I believe if we moved to CET (and daylight savings was abolished) it would have the effect of Summertime hours on the clock permanently

Spring forward once, never fall back

It doesn't seem like a massive change tbh

Lastblackdog

One advantage of having different time zones on the island of Ireland would be to spread the peak electricity demand over two hours instead of one. An important consideration in these times of ever increasing costs.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396527#Comment_120396527

The old chestnut it that Spain aligned with Nazi Germany when Franco was in charge, and never went back. Portugal is in the "correct" zone along with us. The Canaries is also in our zone.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396537#Comment_120396537

That's a good point actually, although would probably depend on more interconnection between the two grids

Francis McM

Its grand here being bright in the summer. No need to make it dark an hour earlier. And we need the existing system to have it bright enough for going to school etc in December / Jan.

If it was 2 different time zones in Ireland can you imagine the confusion, especially with old people, going for meetings, appointments, flights etc across the border. Lots of people live along the border and dip in and out. Not going to happen.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396916#Comment_120396916

I think the proposal from the EU parliament was to switch to permanent summer time, so it would be bright evenings in summer and dark mornings in winter

I'm not sure that was explicitly stated however, so it's a topic for debate

I'm not sure the argument for kids getting to school is as valid today as it was when it was introduced

As for border counties, they're already dealing with different currencies, would different hours be that big a deal? Might even be a slight advantage of you're looking to buy alcohol, you'd effectively get two extra off licence hours 😀

dxhound2005

The EU parliament voted to abolish clock changes. Every member state can choose what time zone they want to be in, or invent a whole new one for themselves if they want. Just as is the case now.

NI is in the UK, so a bit of a strange question in the OP.

AndyBoBandy

Get rid of it…….

driving down to Waterford on Sunday morning, and have to leave at 8am….. so it’s really going to be 7am in my brain!!!!

I don’t need this sh1te anymore……

The Continental Op

Can someone explain this to me if we dump daylight saving do we stay at GMT all year around or summer time which if I get this right is what we are heading for at the weekend GMT +1 (aka IST).

AndyBoBandy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396425#Comment_120396425

unless the UK went for different time zones across GB and NI (unlikely)

could you imagine how well that would go down with our friends of a unionist persuasion up North……

we should ask them for the craic….

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397041#Comment_120397041

Either of the above, or something different, say GMT+2. Every EU member will choose what they want.

The Continental Op

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397064#Comment_120397064

Well the thing is its hard to vote for getting rid of summer time if you don't know exactly what its going to be replaced with?

top floor

We are even farther West than Britain so makes even less sense for us to adopt Central European time all year round, especially for the West of Ireland. It would be dark until near 10am during the Winter (even though would also be bright until nearer to 6pm in the evening). Our "true" (solar) midday would be near to 2:30 in the afternoon. That is not too noticeable in Summer but would be very apparent in Winter.

If business advantage was all that mattered why not adopt East Asian time and have a huge advantage in trade over the rest of our neighbours?😉

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397054#Comment_120397054

I'm not gonna lie, I'd give my support to that proposal just for the joy of seeing the DUP reaction

Could you imagine the colour Sammy Wilson would turn 😂

NIMAN

I live in Roi but work In NI.

I'd have to start to wear 2 watches!

elperello

I think we should continue to have one time zone for the island of Ireland.

We don't need any more barriers for business and social life.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397119#Comment_120397119

I expect if it ever gets that far that it will be a vote in the Oireachtas, not a referendum.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397119#Comment_120397119

That is a fair point, I've tried to update the OP to clarify the options

mcburns07

Moving to CET would be a disaster in my line of work, I deal with the West coast of the US most days and being another hour ahead would mean even less overlap of the working days / later calls.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397157#Comment_120397157

I'm not gonna lie, 6pm sunset in December actually sounds nice, might feel like going out and doing something instead of hibernating at home

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397247#Comment_120397247

I was there as well in my previous job. This is part of the reason I feel daylight savings isn't really applicable anymore, there's a good chunk of the population works outside 9-5

I actually found working later easier rbecause the 5-8pm period was busy trying to get kids collected/fed/bathed/changed/put to bed

I'm more 9-5 now, not gonna go back to working US times if I can avoid it

Jeremy Sproket

Out the **** with it. I voted yes.

Francis McM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397190#Comment_120397190

And those in Belmullet would not have dawn until nearly 10am in December. What a disaster it would be if we ditched the existing system.

Furze99

Clearly if we need to abolish the changing clock, then we stick with the time as it is as of this past few months. Fine and bright late these afternoons and into early evening and no need to change that.

The idea of settling permanently on what will happen tomorrow, is just plain stupid. Very dark mornings in winter, frozen roads for longer to mid morning and downright depressing.

The Continental Op

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120399148#Comment_120399148

That would be Greenwich Mean Time GMT in old money or internationally know by its successors name Coordinated Universal Time UTC we even have our own name IST which I'm sure anyone can work out what that stands for.

So we would stay on IST = GMT = UTC which would get my vote.

EDIT> ABOVE IS WRONG surprised no one picked me up on it? Think thats an indication that the jargon has people a little confuse?

Irish Standard Time IST which we use in the summer is UTC + 1 (GMT + 1). In the winter we use UTC or as I prefer the old fashioned name GMT.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

The Continental Op

For those interested in the legal side of it:

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1971/act/17/enacted/en/print.html

Standard Time (Amendment) Act, 1971

Winter time.

1.—(1) (a) Notwithstanding section 1 (1) of the Standard Time Act, 1968 , the time for general purposes in the State shall during a period of winter time be Greenwich mean time, and during such a period any reference in any enactment or any legal document (whether passed or made before or after the passing of this Act) to a specified point of time shall be construed accordingly unless it is otherwise expressly provided.

(b) The period beginning at two o'clock Greenwich mean time in the morning of the 31st day of October, 1971, and ending at two o'clock Greenwich mean time in the morning of the 19th day of March, 1972, shall for the purposes of this Act be a period of winter time.

(c) Subject to subsection (2) of this section, the period beginning at two o'clock Greenwich mean time in the morning of the Sunday following the fourth Saturday in October in any year after 1971 and ending either at two o'clock Greenwich mean time in the morning of the Sunday following the third Saturday in the month of March in the following year or, if the last-mentioned Sunday is Easter Day, at two o'clock Greenwich mean time in the morning of the Sunday following the second Saturday in the month of March in that year shall for the purposes of this Act be a period of winter time.

(2) The Minister for Justice may by order do all or any of the following—

(a) vary the period of winter time prescribed by subsection (1) (c) of this section, either generally or for a specified year or specified years,

(b) prescribe, either generally or for a specified year or specified years but not so as to affect the operation of subsection (1) (b) of this section, that there shall be no period of winter time,

(c) amend or revoke any order under this subsection (including this paragraph).

(3) An order under this section shall not come into operation until it has been approved by resolution of each House of the Oireachtas.

odyssey06

The Journal sums up state of play.

Stalled at EU level if not dead

82 percent polled favoured same time zone on this island

https://www.thejournal.ie/eu-plans-to-abolish-clock-changes-6024800-Mar2023/

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120399236#Comment_120399236

Interesting, so the Minister can order a change, but cannot go ahead without a vote in the Dail is my understanding of it

So there'll be no referendum or anything on it

However, I could see it being a topic for a citizen's assembly

BrianD3

No matter what we do, we're just tinkering around the edges. Unless we can manage to install giant movable solar mirrors in space, the northern latitudes will be grim in winter. With more light than we need in summer.

i would favour leaving things the way they are or maybe changing to summer time in mid-late february each year.

Or look at societal measures like working shorter hours during the winter, people might then be more productive and less prone to seasonal affective disorder.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120399307#Comment_120399307

Right, space mirrors it is, someone tweet the idea to Elon Musk 😁

I kinda feel the shorter work hours would be nice, but the flip side is that employers would probably demand longer working hours in summer

The idea with permanently shifting the clocks to summer time means we'd have longer evenings all year, but a lot of dark mornings in winter

Admittedly it wouldn't make much difference in December, tinkering at the edges as you say. However it would make a difference in November and January, and to me it seems better to come home with a bit of sunlight left

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120399214#Comment_120399214

Or Zulu time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_time_zones

Zulu is used in civilian airport weather reports, as well as being one of the Military zones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aFvzTY7l90

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120399238#Comment_120399238

Someone was on radio earlier bemoaning the change and the supposedly awful and health threatening effects of adjusting to the change in hour.

A sensible listener messaged in, wondering how half the population and more seem to manage to adjust quite well once if not more a year when they go off on their Ryanair holliers and breaks to god knows where. No complaints whatsoever.

The whole adjustment difficulty thing is just nonsense made up by snowflakes and professionals with irons in the fire.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396312#Comment_120396312

We did it during WW2. They had double summer time, we didn't. Cross border train trips of -55m and so on happened without issue.

dxhound2005

EU members can live with neighbours who do not change their clocks, as well as having neighbours in different time zones. Greece and Bulgaria have borders with Turkey, and Finland has a border with Russia. No reason that the UK could not learn to live with the reverse situation. They can already cope with near neighbours being in a different time zone, like France and Holland.

Turkey and Iceland are candidates to join the EU. I think their populations would not like to be forced to change their clocks every 6 months. Especially the Turks who might see it as being imposed by Greece. I think they would probably get a derogation, if the EU is still hanging on to the old system.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120399759#Comment_120399759

Well I think the clock change adjustment does have an impact but yeah it seems overblown to me... So would an extra hour of darkness in winter mornings. As would summer mornings getting brighter even 'earlier'.

If you change jobs and have a different commute \ work schedule you're going to experience a similar adjustment.

So I haven't seen anything that demonstrates getting rid of the clock change to be a clear cut call for us.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396478#Comment_120396478

I'd get rid of the winter time change but there's always a resistance to change even when the change would make things better.

I'd settle for shortening winter time change to a month either side of winter solstice. The daylight us down to about 8 hours for those couple of months so it doesn't matter how it's divided.

Why people like daylight savings is beyond me. Takes the hour that lots of people could actually use to enjoy themselves after work and gives it to the morning when it's useless because most people are just going to work.

Swaine

Or may be just leave it alone? Throwing us out of sync with NI and mainland UK would do serious economic damage not to mention confusing the life out of people in the border counties.

mcburns07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120400380#Comment_120400380

Why would it do economic damage though? Genuine question here.

dxhound2005

Border people are resilient. They cope with this sort of challenge, all round the world.

mcburns07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120400437#Comment_120400437

That's what I don't get. Plenty of people all over Europe cross time zones on a daily basis for work and leisure.

dxhound2005

Yes, and I never heard of masses of English people getting confused when they take a ferry or the tunnel to France.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397190#Comment_120397190

I can't find the article but there's a town in Australia on the border of Queensland and New South Wales that has an hour time difference because of the 2 states having different daylight savings time zones. The residents there do have 2 clocks and watches, and if the shops are closed in their town they can drive a few minutes across the border to get what they need "an hour earlier".