Graham Dwyer loses appeal

marilynrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121636756#Comment_121636756

You must not have read them then 🧐 https://www.sundayworld.com/crime/irish-crime/crime-long-read-the-twisted-secrets-of-sadistic-killer-graham-dwyer-part-1/41773630.html That's the most complete transcript I could find doing a quick search but some are still missing.

You can see that the day before said she wasn't being stabbed and he gave her a choice of 4 punishments instead. She said she wanted him to stop talking about suicide because she wanted to have a normal life and not think about that....after he'd said he wanted to be there and watch, she said he just wanted a hard on. She also asked why they couldn't just have a normal S&M relationship with punishments like just living on bread and butter.

He was over the moon when she expressed that he terrified her....he wanted her to feel that her life was in his hands but he also knew at times he had to reassure her that he wasn't actually going to kill her or else she wouldn't show up. He even told her to relax because if she went missing they'd find him through her emails and alt history so although sometimes they talked as master and slave, other times they weren't...and that should be clear to anyone who reads the texts unless they are deliberately trying to misunderstand them.

Just to clarify your last point, you think that he was likely to kill someone either way because of poor self control AND the fact he had receptive counterparts? You don't think the poor self control alone would have led him to kill a random woman?

Sheep breeder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121636908#Comment_121636908

Ashling Murphy and Lucy Letsby threads spring to mind, very sad person.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121637219#Comment_121637219

The one I mostly remember was the drunk girl raped by a bouncer.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121637111#Comment_121637111

I had read the messages and both to me they clearly show the distorted relationship and roleplay I had mentioned. Of course her fear and pleading turned him on because it emphasised the control he had over her which can be intoxicating. Likewise you can tell his resentment because her admission to hospital and her suicidal thoughts had both removed a lot of control that he had had about her. This anger at having lost control is as understandable as it formed the most central part of their relationship which was based on nothing else.

Yes, sadly I believe that he partially escalated because there were no control and boundaries on either side. Obviously the fault is ultimately with him, but I can see how the combination of resentment, lust and her complete submission could have led to a loss of control.

marilynrr

@Jequ0n

It's clear in the messages that there is roleplay but I also think it's pretty obvious to most people where they go in and out of roleplay in the texts. That was also clear in the other text exchanges that they had at previous times. They were going in and out of roleplay.

I don't think there was ever a time where their message exchanges showed him having complete control of her. It's likely they did have that at one point but those messages/phones were never found. The first ones shown were when he text her saying he was an old friend, that they used to play together and he missed it terribly, and she replied that she wasn't into blood anymore. My guess is that he did have complete control of her at one point until he pushed her too far and she stopped 'playing' with him, but once they resumed contact that she retained at least some control and he went along with that because he wanted her to keep seeing him, but again that was a different time period and we cant' see the messages or roleplay.

So I personally think any anger at losing control would have happened at the time when he did lose control of her, not at the time when he killed her. I don't see anger in his messages, I see mostly excitement and restlessness because his fantasies had been escalating for quite some time and he was absolutely desperate to get to escalate them in real life. I don't think he did things out of anger.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121637378#Comment_121637378

I agree with quite a lot of what you are saying there. I rank the role play element higher because it was very much at the core of their relationship. I was specifically referring to the time period closer to her death as showing signs of anger and resentment. Never underestimate the impact of built up frustration at having lost the thing you crave most (in his case power) especially if it was for a longer period of time. I don’t think that he killed her out of anger btw, but I think it was a contributing factor for him going overboard.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121637891#Comment_121637891

He's a killer, he's a natural killer. This was never about role play it was about end direction to murder. Take life,

What's disturbing is despite all of the evidence that shows the premeditated meticulous planning that went into it all. Your pretending that was all part of a game a role.

It wasn't he knew the outcome and he got it.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121637895#Comment_121637895

Fine. You have a different opinion on this. I have no problem with that.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121638726#Comment_121638726

Well no its not opinion. It was ruled on by a court and the evidence and sentence was that he murdered her.

Your fantasy make up reality about a man who just had a kink and took it too far flies in the face of his engagements with her. The planned meet up and how it was arranged and the subsequent disposal of evidence. Nothing was erratic about it.

But sure look just lost it...didn't he. 🙄

vswr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121638842#Comment_121638842

I mean, he could have tripped over and arranged a meeting in a manner which was completely different from their usual Stepaside apartment, where he asked O'Hara to leave her car and all belongings, EXCEPT, the phone they interact with, and meet him inconspicuously the other side of the field.... he then may have tripped again, and the two phones fell into the reservoir, miles away from where her body was found.... it's easily done like, happens all the time.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121638842#Comment_121638842

Anyone would have disposed of the evidence in case of an accidental killing, too. Anyway, we won’t agree so no use debating this.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639021#Comment_121639021

We don't have to agree. He's in jail for murder he was found to have murdered this vulnerable woman based on the evidence and his fully preplanned nature of the killing.

Agreement on your opinion is somewhat, not an issue.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639236#Comment_121639236

True. And nice to see that we could come to this conclusion without insults being thrown around.

Be right back

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121638842#Comment_121638842

Poor Elaine, she really didn't stand a chance. Read the transcript of all their messages someone posted. GD is a monster and deserves to stay in prison. If he did get out, there's every chance he could do it again. It was planned and not a loss of self control. He had every detail planned.

Ten of Swords

Mod - There's a pretty obvious pile on happening in this thread and it stops now. Any more such posts will earn an immediate threadban.

If you don't like a particular user, for whatever reason, either ignore them or report any posts that you feel are inappropriate.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639317#Comment_121639317

So do you believe the wrong verdict was reached? Are you of the view that the murder was not premeditated? Do you think he just lacked self control and in future could learn to control it? Maybe its just me but I wouldn't be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on that one.

Day Lewin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639434#Comment_121639434

I agree the man is a monster but for a point of information, (I'm a nerd!) you can't blame the "50 shades" book for this case.

Dwyer had been actively seeking partners well before that book came out. I don't know when Elaine joined fetlife but the first 50-shades book came out in 2011 and the murder happened in 2012; so i think that both victim and killer must have been involved with "alternative" activities before the book came out.

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121638842#Comment_121638842

So if it’s quashed you’ll change your opinion as he’ll be ruled a free and innocent man?? If you’re going by court judgements……..

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640131#Comment_121640131

Not at all, if it's quashed it's entirely on nonsense technicalities about data storage. Which tbh I entirely disagree with. The EU should have carved out stuff on this for serious crime. No doubt their logging stuff for terrorism.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640131#Comment_121640131

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640207#Comment_121640207

exactly this. If the verdict is overturned it will not change his guilt. The evidence says he did murder her. the technicalities of the legality of that evidence doesn't change what the evidence says.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639624#Comment_121639624

I believe he killed her but I don’t think he is the monster he is made out to be. Though this always happens in cases that gain a lot of attention.

nacho libre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640435#Comment_121640435

Why do you believe that exactly?

Is it because you think it was a sex game that spun out of control rather than her killing being a premeditated act by him?

Day Lewin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640435#Comment_121640435

A previous partner eventually left him because his knife fantasies were becoming increasingly explicit. He had a dagger under the pillow during sex.

He wrote fantasies based around stabbing to the point of death. And he "realised" his fantasies more and more. Oh, he was always going to kill someone, and might do so again.

He is absolutely a narcissist, its Number 1 first, always. Some important bit of human-ness is missing, there.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640567#Comment_121640567

I believe his fetish turned into an obsession that got out of control, and you could compare it to a drug that takes over your life slowly but surely.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640590#Comment_121640590

He did outline his fantasies and plans with O’Hara though, so it’s not like this was a well kept secret and a surprise attack. He might be a narcissist. I wouldn’t want to pass a label.

Day Lewin

Of course it wasn't a secret, it was the basis - the ONLY basis - for their on/off "relationship".

He did describe his intentions, and she protested in vain. She wanted the flattery and attention, even though she dreaded what he would do.

The poor girl had special needs, and was just out of hospital for mental illness. She was utterly exploited. He must have had a heart of stone.

I too don't care for slapping on labels, and I normally hesitate to judge another human.

But in this particular crime - so careless of the victim, so brutally selfish. No dilution of guilt can be entertained.

marilynrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121640435#Comment_121640435

Do you see it as a bit of a sliding doors kind of thing? He could have went one way and instead he went another?

I think his fetish started in his teenage years, no idea if there's anything in his background that could have caused the fetish to develop and I suppose we'll never know unless he talks.

But I think the way he did go, he is very much a monster now. I think there's no way back. There's no possible version of Graham Dwyer where he doesn't have those monstruous thoughts or where he isn't a danger to women.

Do you not think he's a monster because you imagine a sliding doors version of him that wouldn't have went down that path where his fetish escalated or do you not think this version of him is the monster he's made out to be?

walshb

The guy is a fooking killer/murderer. Is there much more to it, really?

marilynrr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121639906#Comment_121639906

I believe they first connected on one of those websites in 2007 but they don't much of the early communication. I said in a previous response on here that the first communication they found were the texts saying when he was an old friend but I googled today and saw that they found an email to her in 2008 from 'architect72' saying

"I hope you are keeping ok.

"I've assumed you are trying to get better and trying to stay away from what we do together. Just so you know, I'm always thinking of you and hoping you are safe and not suffering too much on the inside."

He also said he would do what he promised to do "regardless of the consequences", adding that "all you have to do is call me from a phone box and say where and when".

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/herald/im-always-thinking-of-you-email-from-architect-to-elaine/31009845.html

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121641020#Comment_121641020

Of course. Her condition made her perfect for him and vice versa. That’s why I referred to them in the past as a disaster waiting to happen.

It’s regrettable for her that she didn’t use the opportunity she had while being in hospital, but then hers is a perspective I could never understand so I won’t even try.