Tenant in situ scheme

Apkb2592Conor

Hi our landlord is selling to the council, he has accepted the councils offer. We are currently on HAP. Our notice is up In a few months. Just wondering what actually happens to the tenant, ie us , do we automatically get to stay on as council tenants, and if so does one scheme just transfer over or is there much we have to do to become the council tenant. That’s hoping it all goes through!

Rows Grower

Contact your local HAP department or TD for confirmation.

Emblematic

@Apkb2592Conor, There seems to be very little published information on the scheme so it would be great if you could keep us updated on your progress. This would help others in a similar situation.

DownByTheGarden

I am selling to the council. One of the stipulations was that it is vacant on the day of the sale. Anyone else ive heard of selling to the council has had that too.

Apkb2592Conor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396170#Comment_120396170

Do you have current HAP tenants? Everyone we’ve talked too, letting agent/auctioneer, hap , councillors etc all said to sit and wait that if it’s being bought it’s because we are on hap/housing list and will be at risk of homelessness. Nothing ever works that simply with the council so we are seriously wondering what happens.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396170#Comment_120396170

My guess is that your arrangement is probably not part of the tenant-in-situ scheme.

Spanish Eyes

I often wondered about tenants in such a situation. Surely if a tenant is not a housing list priority, then the house would be allocated to the next person on the list for that area and therefore the property must be vacant when sold?

Things may have changed, but a number of years ago we sold the house of a relative, there were HAP tenants in situ, the council were willing to buy but vacant possession was mandatory. We sold privately for a better price and got vacant possession after a bit of heartache too.

As I said, things may have changed.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396751#Comment_120396751

My guess is that its extremely rare. At least I havent heard from anyone selling under it. And I know quiet a few landlords either selling at the moment or getting ready to sell.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396768#Comment_120396768

I don't think it is a widely publicised scheme but seems to have been around for a couple of years.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396724#Comment_120396724

No mine was empty. My sister had 2 apartments. Council made her several offers and made it clear they had to be empty, but she didnt go with them in the end. Her last tenants were both HAP.

Ginger83

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396170#Comment_120396170

My sister sold a house to the council and it was strictly with vacant possession.

Emblematic

From the government's website:

Increasing tenant in situ acquisitions

• in light of the challenges in addressing homelessness, combined with continuing exits from the private rental market, Government will continue to support opportunities for the acquisition of properties to prevent homelessness and will take further targeted measures to increase acquisitions of properties where a landlord is selling the property
• in April 2022, Government reinstated the delegated sanction to local authorities in respect of social housing acquisitions. The reinstatement of delegated sanction has allowed local authorities to respond with more flexibility to secure acquisitions which support a household to exit or to prevent homelessness
• Government will support local authorities to acquire at least 1,500 social homes in 2023 with a further expansion of that target as required. The majority of these will be focused on properties where landlords are exiting the market and there is already a social housing tenant in place
• the Department of Housing has written to each local authority to instruct them to target acquisitions on HAP or RAS tenants under a Notice to Quit, develop their own acquisition plan and seeking a report on acquisitions in train for 2023 which is due to be received by the end of March
• the Department of Housing is setting up a “Acquisition Delivery Team” to ensure each Local Authority meets its Tenant in situ purchase targets
• a cost rental tenant in situ backstop will be applied on an administrative basis from 1 April prior to legislative enactment with a view to supporting households at risk of homelessness

[source] (emphasis mine).

From this it looks like it is a scheme that was small scale in nature but is being ramped up to deal with issues around the ending of the ending of the no fault eviction ban.

So people's experience of having to evict when selling to the LA in the past probably don't apply here to the same extent.

Emblematic

Very poor information outside of that.

For example on Dublin City Council's website, very little information for individuals.

Performing a search in google reveals a lot of minutes from meetings and such but no page with information for landlords or tenants.

Apkb2592Conor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396949#Comment_120396949

Yes Information is very poor, we have tried asking in a lot of places . We know an offer has been accepted on the property but that doesn’t mean much until the sale goes through. We’ve a young family so really want to find out possible senarios.

Emblematic

And the landlords selling don't even seem to know about it. Shocking to think there may be homelessness simply because information is not published.

But you are probably still best advised to explore every option not merely this scheme.

herbalplants

Where is all these cash coming from that government is using to buy so many houses to house people? Is there an infinite money tree in their garden?

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397033#Comment_120397033

They do know about it. If you were interested in it and asked about it you are told no.

It would be a rare case where you wouldnt get more money on the open market than going direct to the council.

In my sisters case she had hap tenants and asked about it and the council made an offer but wanted vacant posession.

In my case the tenants were already gone anyway, the council bid me a few tens of thousands more than their first bid after other bidders bid against them. I really dont understand why anyone would sell a property without testing the market. Probably costing themselves a fortune by not offering it to bidders.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397111#Comment_120397111

Taxpayers own money being used to sh!t on them.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/i-gave-my-landlord-notice-and-now-in-a-few-weeks-i-could-be-homeless-sale-agreed-homebuyers-told-houses-now-sold-to-single-purchaser-42402071.html

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397116#Comment_120397116

Thanks for the correction. Well thankfully the scheme seems to be set to ramp up and it will probably be more information on it in the coming weeks. Still not enough for tenants in risk of homelessness but it is a start.

herbalplants

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397132#Comment_120397132

That was my next question 💰

herbalplants

Well they are thinking somehow that they need to reign it in.... So not sure they can keep buying these houses for all the tenants out there... Such a mess

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/2023/03/24/economic-turmoil-means-finance-ministers-must-rein-in-spending-donohoe/

herbalplants

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397126#Comment_120397126

Such a disaster... Imagine even in Co mayo they have shortage... Seriously who is this single buyer

ted1

I’m currently selling to the Dublin City council. Tenants are being kept on , they are on hap. No need for them to move out

Im getting market rate + saving on not paying Estate agent fees.

I’m going to delay the sake to see if they will bring in CGT exemption

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397006#Comment_120397006

Although you have it in the thread title, could I ask if you definitely heard the sale is part of the tenant-in-situ scheme and who did you hear it from? Was it the landlord or do you have confirmation from the LA?

C3PO

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120398408#Comment_120398408

This is the most important question OP - is the house being bought by the council as part of the “tenant in situ scheme”? If not, then you will need to vacate. Has your landlord given you notice to quit?

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120402495#Comment_120402495

I think it may have been one of these schemes that is in the gift of TDs but deliberately not well known outside until the recent decision to allow no fault evictions when the scheme started to be discussed in the media. I would not be surprised if many staff in the LAs aren't aware such a scheme exits and are therefore continuing to insist on vacant possession.

There's another much more widely published scheme for mortgage holders. If they can't pay the mortgage through no fault of their own then there's the mortgage-to-rent scheme.

https://mortgagetorent.ie/

herbalplants

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120402495#Comment_120402495

Not sure where all this cash buying houses will come from as government seem to be paying even more than market rate which is all honky dory but begs the question when will they run out of cash?

Apkb2592Conor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120402417#Comment_120402417

Yes we were given notice before the landlord approached the council. I informed them of the scheme after talking to hap and was told that the landlord was considering it. The letting agent / auctioneer has told us that we recently that all going well with the sale would just be paying the council rent instead of them. They also wanted to know if and how long we were on the housing list to add to help the application so we have assumed it was that scheme

Jinglejangle69

So it’s basically get on HAP, skip the social housing list and stay in the house been sold forever at a discounted rent.

This country is heading for a massive fall off a cliff edge.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120403970#Comment_120403970

Something like this is needed though if no fault evictions are to be allowed again in times of rental shortage, so that people can keep their homes.

mrslancaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120404161#Comment_120404161

Something like this is really unfair to families who have been on the waiting list for years. It will be galling to those people who have been waiting many years to see HAP and RAS tenants in private rentals skipping ahead and getting a council house before them

Would the scheme apply if say the HAP or RAS tenant has only been renting for a year for example?

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120404352#Comment_120404352

Very understandable but you are looking at potential homelessness in the case of some people being asked to leave in the present climate. Exactly how the scheme works, who gets priority etc., I don't know because the information is very patchy.

Doesn't solve the overall housing problem which, in my opinion, is overall lack of units for purchase, rent at reasonable prices and as social homes. But in times of extreme shortage, the priority has to be to keep people in their homes.

Another scheme called mortgage-to-rent has been around a while and there's a lot more information on it. That scheme is for people who can't pay their mortgages.

The "in situ" scheme isn't even for people who can't pay their rent - they can - but are nevertheless being asked to leave so I suppose it is understandable that the Government are increasing the rental in situ scheme given there was not much outrage over the other one.

In order to make the tenant-in-situ scheme the equivalent of the mortgage-to-rent scheme they would have to extend it to people who can't pay their rent. Then, one might argue, it would be fairer.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120402831#Comment_120402831

I refused the councils first 2 offers on mine and ended up giving in when they offered 30% over what the next highest bidder had offered. How could I say no? But my god it must be costing the tax payer a pretty penny.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120402470#Comment_120402470

Even if its a charity, its tax payers money. Really cruel on those people who thought they had finally got on the property ladder to have the rug pulled from under them using their own taxes.

Caranica

Council did that in my development, bought an entire cluster which had been on public sale and many of the houses had been sold. It's completely contrary to the council's own policy with regard to ghettoisation and there have been lots of problems but it got the council off the hook for not building enough homes.

SwimClub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120404422#Comment_120404422

I'd agree with Leo in that the homelessness stuff is overblown, many people could find alternative accommodation but they are not motivated to do so for various reasons. There are examples on another thread of someone not wanting to move home for a while or turning down places they don't like. The idea that you get to be fussy and have the state pay your rent doesn't sit well with me. They should prioritise families, but for single people or couples I'd offer emergency accommodation and stick to the existing social housing list in terms of who gets priority. I'd say over 90% of the HAP tenants faced with notices of termination wouldn't take them up on the emergency accom option, because they would find other options.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120406406#Comment_120406406

Absolutely. They need to target it towards those genuinely in need, though I think it needs to be pointed out that those availing of the scheme will still pay rent. Maybe not the currently inflated market price rent but rent nevertheless. The other thing that needs to be factored in is the cost of emergency accommodation such as hotels and the like if the scheme were not in place.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120403970#Comment_120403970

And since there are no consequences to not paying councils their rent it'll be a bigger mess when your local property tax is used to pay back the loans.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120404352#Comment_120404352

Yes. Some people get lucky. It’s just life.

Amio

so i am LL looking to sell my property to the local CC, i would love this to happen for the tenants in situ, so i had to serve th NTQ, have had a structure inspection, and a EA was in on behalf of CC....

has anyone any experience of actually selling to the council and know how long or what else e will have to happen before they make an offer.

lcats

Hi amio, I wonder if you mind my asking how this process has gone for you so far in terns of selling g to the Co council?

Was it quick enough, a market offer etc?

Estate agents come in and do not look at any issues in the structure of the property and overlook anything a buyer would potentially flag ,

I'm wondering are the valuers working for the council more thorough ? I guess they have a builder Conduct a structural assessment first so the offer a council makes would be more fair in terms of potential work a house needs .

Apologies didn't intend to go on , any experience with this that you wouldn't mind sharing I'd appreciate.

celbridge74

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120893119#Comment_120893119

I've just agreed a sale with the council yesterday. We had contacted them in mid March with questions and they sent an expression of interest form. We had to get BER and independent valuation so it was heading towards mid May before we applied. They then asked us to get the tenants (who are there 11 years and have a tenancy termination notice date of October) to contact them, which I assume was to assess that they were suitable under the scheme. They contacted towards the end of June to organise separate surveyor and valuation visits three weeks ago. They came back last week with an offer €15000 below the independent market valuation. We immediately turned it down and the valuer came back just as quick with a €10000 increase in the offer. We thought about it over the weekend and named that we wouldn't accept less than the independent valuation and after it being progressed up somewhere in the council for approval, they offered that today. We had linked with the original auctioneer who valued it for advice in the interim and he felt that the valuation was still the same. Even if we had taken the risk and gone to the open market any potential increase would have been wiped out with auctioneers fees and the hassle/cost of getting house painted etc for selling- and the risk of tenant's overholding (as it will be impossible for them to something on the open market at the rent they've been paying). It's been a relatively smooth process so far but I assume that they won't be in a huge rush to complete now that the tenants are no longer at risk of becoming homeless.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120896874#Comment_120896874

I sold an apartment to the council. There were no tenants in it when I sold it but I had the same sh1t with them. They kept offering under what i wanted and i said no and they came back. Eventually someone else bid way, way more than I was expecting and then the council topped that bid even. In the end sold to the council. I think they will have decided they want the house and have x amount to spend on it and then they will bid anything up to that. We had an EA who has sold to the council befoe and he advised us that they would pay that amount so not to accept the lower bids. We got a bit worried but he was right in the end.

Ezeoul

I just recently heard this from someone who works for a LA, so I'd don't know if its an urban legend or 100% true, but anyway.

3 bedroom house. Tenants there for 12 years. The landlord put it up for sale, offered it to the council, but they wouldn't pay the price the seller wanted. There was a €5k shortfall. He told the tenants that he would sell on the open market instead. The tenants offered to pay him the shortfall €5k in cash, if he'd accept the council offer. He took it.

lcats

The estate agents certainly don't give attention to potential repairs or updates a buyer would have to factor in. Thank you very much for sharing experiences, great help.

Oscar1039

Has any tenant been successful with the council purchasing an apartment with a management fee in place ? Currently waiting to hear from council about landlords application. Also does anyone know what price caps are in place for the Dublin councils for a 1 bed apartment ?

L1011

There isn't a (modern, anyway) apartment without a management fee anywhere so if they've bought any apartments, they've had management fees. And they have bought apartments going on reports here