Are IQ maps Racist?

growleaves · 23-03-2023 5:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120392332#Comment_120392332

Argentinian demographics are different from 100 years ago. Many of the German, Italian and Spanish immigrants who settled there returned to their original countries in the early to mid-century.

The numbers are all over the place re Ireland and the UK. One study puts Ireland at 104 while a different study puts England at 99.

What I'm saying is:

Calling Irish people "thickos" relative to other Europeans, and putting Ireland in Latin America collapse territory, is an extraordinary claim. Taking this at face value and repeating it seems to me to be a mistake.

Common sense observation shows that Ireland is within the broad average of Scotland, Wales, NI and England on factors that correlate with general intelligence like the ones I mentioned above.

Richard Lynn, who is the source of many of these IQ maps and has often revised his own figures, also says that Irish-Americans and English-Americans are broadly in line on IQ-correlated outcomes like per capita income, educational outcomes, professional achievements etc.

Francis McM · 23-03-2023 5:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120392445#Comment_120392445

All of the studies I have seen on the internet put Irish IQ well below average English IQ. An example of a scientist isolating Irish IQs as being particularly low was Hans Eysenck. In 1971, he proposed that selective immigration over the centuries had lowered the average IQ of the population remaining in Ireland. His basis for this view was a study by MacNamara (1966) which “. . . found the Irish to have IQs which were not very different from those observed in American blacks, and far below comparable English samples. Even the average Irish IQ in Lynn’s (1979) study was 6.1 points below Lynn’s (1979) average IQ for London and southeastern England.

Mic 1972 · 23-03-2023 6:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120392420#Comment_120392420

and also Africans who scored low on the IQ test, may be highgly intelligent in skills that were not being measured. If a high IQ maths student gets lost in the forest, he is probably going to die because he has no survival skills, which are essentially a set of peculiar forms of intelligence. Someone who lived his entire life in a less civilized country may be better equipped for that. Hope this doesn't come accross as racist, it is what it is

Cordell · 23-03-2023 6:54pm

The IQ doesn't measure the skills and knowledge, it measures the intellectual ability to acquire skills and knowledge.

growleaves · 23-03-2023 7:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120392649#Comment_120392649

Due to the Flynn effect it makes more sense to use recent scores and comparisons rather than a study from 1966. I would expect Ireland to suffer more adversely from the Flynn effect than the UK due to later industrialisation.

I would expect London and SE to have a higher concentration of intelligent people than the rest of the UK. London is brain drain central for all parts of the UK and Ireland. London and SE are also where many wealthy people (and wealth is correlated with IQ) buy property when they have 'made it'. That makes it unrepresentative of the average.

Look into Lynn's methodology, it is sloppy stuff.

Dyr · 23-03-2023 8:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120392420#Comment_120392420

I like how you think that theorizing about why IQ disparities exist can dismiss their existence.

Why did some parts of the world not have access to education and nutrition that stunted their development? Seems like a chicken and egg scenario.

Dyr · 23-03-2023 8:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120392697#Comment_120392697

Is this the second time that you tried to shoehorn intelligence into something else? I seem to recall its was artistic and sporting ability last time, it's survival skills now.

RobbieTheRobber · 23-03-2023 10:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120392878#Comment_120392878

Not really. IQ tests really only measure one thing a person's ability to perform at IQ tests.

Dyr · 23-03-2023 10:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120393663#Comment_120393663

Maths tests only measure your ability to perform maths tests, which requires the ability to perform maths

Sprint tests only measure your ability to perform sprint tests, which requires to ability to run really fast.

Dyr · 23-03-2023 10:39pm

deletey

RobbieTheRobber · 23-03-2023 11:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120393709#Comment_120393709

Exactly.

Cordell · 24-03-2023 10:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120393663#Comment_120393663

IQ tests gives IQ scores. IQ score is a measurement of intelligence, especially the kind of intelligence required to perform academically. So yes really, IQ scores does measure the person's abilities to aquire skills and knowledge.

Shoog · 24-03-2023 10:57am

IQ tracks poverty, why ? Because the diet you eat and the pathogens you are exposed to in early childhood dicate your brain development. Take a poverty striken population with low endemic IQ and remove the poverty and the general IQ will jump immediately and continue to rise as a virtuous feedback circle develops.

If Ireland has historically had a depressed general IQ it only goes so show that Ireland has a history of endemic poverty and that takes generations to eradicate.

Anyone who points to a poor population and highlights their low IQ is only really showing their ignorance of cause and effect at play.

Francis McM · 24-03-2023 11:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394840#Comment_120394840

Actually genes have an influence. That is why, as someone else said, the following factors have an influence too:

(A) He said over the years, more stupid people reproduced more often, and at a younger age, than intelligent people. He explained that less intelligent people in Ireland and and to a lesser extent other western countries tend to have bigger families (maybe due to culture, social welfare, the more intelligent striving in their careers or professions etc).

(B) Then he said in Irish history, the most intelligent one in some families tended to go for the priesthood, and did not reproduce, and therefore did not pass on their intelligence.

(C) And he said the more intelligent often emmigrated in an effort to better themselves.

Quantum Erasure · 24-03-2023 11:16am

I don't think intelligence is so strongly linked to genetics, that a couple of generations of social welfare would have a noticable effect on the overall IQ of a country.

Shoog · 24-03-2023 11:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120394864#Comment_120394864

Genes will have an influence at the individual level but not at the population level. Given no emigration each population will have similar/identical IQ distributions ie similar proportions of IQ levels - even if the average IQ of that population is skewed up or down by poverty.

Countries which do best have a strong tendency to poach the most intelligent individuals from more disadvantaged populations and so skew their own IQ profile. Immigration tends always to boost the receiving countries IQ profile and why it is strongly encouraged in countries like the UK and USA.

IQ maps are not inherently racist (facts don't lie) but the interpretations placed on them very often are.

Quantum Erasure · 24-03-2023 11:32am

That's what happened when Kerry's smartest man moved to Cork, he lowered the IQ in both counties....

Run Forest Run · 24-03-2023 11:40am

I've come to the conclusion in recent years, that if you give pretty much any group of people access to world class education for a significant period of time... you will see improvements in levels of intelligence.

Is there a genetic/cultural influence with regard to which groups produce the brightest minds or the highest average levels of intelligence? I would say yes, there probably is... but I don't see why this needs to be wrapped up with the badge of "racism" etc.

It's been known for a long time that Ashkenazi jews, for example, make up a disproportionate number of the brightest minds in the world. But they also seem to suffer disproportionately with hereditary genetic diseases too... it's funny how very few people would try to deny the prevalence of these hereditary health conditions, but would be of a mind to deny the prevalence of high IQ.

Some groups and cultures are just more inclined towards academic endeavours, so naturally you will get higher standards achieved by these groups over time. Just like some groups are inclined towards sports, and so you get generation after generation with high level physical/sporting prowess.

Many people's world view simply prohibits them from acknowledging obvious truths and clear trends in society. Which is a shame, because this leads to quite a lot of dishonesty and willful ignorance among these people. I've spent quite a lot of my life in academic circles, but I've never felt threatened by any person/group that were more intelligent or talented in certain fields. I just try to observe their traits and learn something useful from them.

Overheal · 24-03-2023 3:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120393254#Comment_120393254

They were murdered and colonized…?

Dyr · 24-03-2023 3:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396119#Comment_120396119

So you reckon that map would have been solid green before all of this murdering and colonizing took place?

Thelonious Monk · 24-03-2023 3:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396250#Comment_120396250

let's cut to the chase - do you personally think Africans are less intelligent than other races?

Overheal · 24-03-2023 4:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396250#Comment_120396250

The Intelligence Quotient hadn’t even been ‘invented’ yet.

There must be a million other topics you could be less bored with.

Thelonious Monk · 24-03-2023 4:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396333#Comment_120396333

this is a bloke who posts about too many black people on o'connell st. how this thread is still open shows how downhill boards has gone.

o1s1n · 24-03-2023 4:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396250#Comment_120396250

This map is reflective of the current state of education around the world.

If you want to extrapolate that out to having some type of commentary on race, go for it - but it makes you sound like a complete and utter racist.

Dyr · 24-03-2023 5:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396333#Comment_120396333

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396357#Comment_120396357

"invented" in quotation marks. 🤣

The posts of the lads realising that they are occupying an untenable position and trying to collapse the scrum.

BTW, poster called Thelonious Monk, you're using the name of a famous black musician. I understand that a lot of black people would consider that to be appropriation if you are not black, are you black?

At least this chap is having a go.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396441#Comment_120396441

It's a commentary on the distribution of intelligence across the globe. You seem to think that theorizing about why the distribution is as it is, somehow invalidates it. It doesnt. No more than accepting it make one a racist.

Thelonious Monk · 24-03-2023 5:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396620#Comment_120396620

do you think black people are less intelligent than other races?

Dyr · 24-03-2023 6:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120396630#Comment_120396630

While the data might suggest that, I have formed no opinion.

Of course the map I linked to does not show distribution by "race" it shows it by nation. I'm not even sure you should describe black people as a race, seems problematic to me. Anyway, how about you answering that question, are you a white person using a famous black man as your username? Is that not called digital blackface these days? Also problematic, I'm led to believe.