Divestment of National Schools stalled in North Dublin due to parental objection

MrMusician18

Interesting article on RTE this morning regarding the divestment of schools in the Raheny area in North Dublin for a number of reasons. This was to be a pilot project on how divestment could be handled but the process has concluded with an overwhelming majority of parents voting for the status quo to remain. The debate was divisive and has split the school communities 8 to 2.

The other interesting aspect is the editorialisation in the article and the lack of balance and bias - even for RTE. It's quite clear that a process has been followed and a decision arrived at democratically but the article questions the fairness of this. The vote against change is characterized as the change wasn't sold properly to parents rather than it what it actually was - completely unwanted. I somehow doubt that if parents had voted the other way it would have been characterised as unfair.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2023/0318/1363868-school-patronage/

enfant terrible

"Perhaps not surprisingly, 83% of families voted against divestment and 17% in favour. 56% voted in favour of changing to a system where girls and boys could be educated together, with 42% against."

I agree if the figures above were in favour of divestment the author of the article would have been praising the process as a success, instead of lamenting its rejection.

jam_mac_jam

It's probably reasonable for the parents not to agree if they don't know what they are agreeing to.

Also "But is it fair that a majority of parents were allowed to veto the right of a substantial minority who want their children educated in a non-Catholic setting, or even just want boys and girls to be educated together?" well yes, that is fair because its the majority and if the majority of the parents do not want to change, how is that anything but fair.

I don't think religion should be in education but if the majority of parents want it to remain then you can't really go against that.

drserious4

If Educate Together school was just an ordinary school minus religion it would be a more popular sell.

It's much more than that though, everything about the ethos changes and there will likely be differences with regard to homework, uniforms, how the teacher is addressed and how behaviour is managed.

Many ET schools are exceptionally liberal and this is not to everyone's taste.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120374298#Comment_120374298

They are starting to suffer from falling numbers while at the same time demanding the government build more

I'm genuinely surprised so many parents voted against divestment.

But it does sounds like they made this process of reconfiguration between three schools overly complicated.

At the meeting parents complained that the reconfiguration process was "not properly worked out".

They said it was "unfair" that they did not have "a clear view of how the schools would be reconfigured before they could agree with the transfer of patronage of any of the schools".

The facilitator's report states that "Parents indicated that the lack of a clearly worked out plan for the three schools meant that parents didn't have a clear proposal to consider. As a result, they were unwilling to take "a shot in the dark" and so plumped for retention of the status quo".

It sounds like it was set up to fail.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120374298#Comment_120374298

I had heard they might be a bit "happy-clappy", although I wasn't sure of the extent of it.

Danzy

Parents shockingly wanting what's best for their children.

Loike the Church and kids is hardly a great history, has it.

No. That says though how shi7 the alternatives are.

redlough

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058288794/divestment-of-national-schools-stalled-in-north-dublin-due-to-parental-objection

well done to the parents

Hippodrome Song Owl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120374298#Comment_120374298

That is as may be, but ET wasn't the alternative offered by the divestment process.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120374331#Comment_120374331

Where are you seeing these 'falling numbers'?

ahappychappy

In response to the rather ill informed comments on ET.

For context I work at senior level in third level and my professional experience involves evaluation of education programmes.

My children have been through ET primary and secondary. The curriculum is the national curriculum They study facts the six main religions. They mark all cultural and religious dates respectfully.

My experience is quality learner focused teaching where the focus is on ensuring each child reaches their potential and is instilled with respect for themselves and others.

How on earth in this day and age people believe referring to a teacher by their first name reduces respect, actually makes me fear for the future.

Behavior in my experience is on par with every other school in the neighborhood. They focus on restorative justice. Natural consequences for deliberate actions. All children are involved in agreeing their class golden rules.

I am delighted my children have been given a great education and have benefited from been constantly supported to be themselves to be proud of their achievements and how to address their challenges.

I do hope we will have a future where everyone has the education of choice available to them.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377254#Comment_120377254

For context I work at senior level in third level and my professional experience involves evaluation of education programmes.

…

I am delighted my children have been given a great education and have benefited from been constantly supported to be themselves to be proud of their achievements and how to address their challenges.

Oops 😬 Had you not provided context, I’d have been prepared to overlook a gaffe like that 😖

I do hope we will have a future where everyone has the education of choice available to them.

That’s unlikely to happen while Government continues to pursue this ‘divestment’ nonsense. It could only happen when parents demand that the State fulfil its responsibility to provide for education suitable to every child’s needs. The divestment process in this case failed simply because the majority of parents already have their education of choice available to them, and the minority who don’t shall simply continue to be deprived of an education suitable for their children’s needs.

The State attempting to persuade a majority of parents of the benefits of an ANY other form of education, which parents don’t feel is suitable for their children’s educational needs, was always doomed to failure.

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377381#Comment_120377381

well thats utter nonsense.

What "choice" do you think most people have when choosing schools?

Im sure you will be providing evidence to back up "majority of parents already have their education of choice available to them"

ahappychappy

Apologies if my dyslexia impacts you. I am not writing an evaluation report nor a thesis so am not using the tech I usually use but hey have your low blow.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377413#Comment_120377413

What’s nonsense is in your own efforts to confirm your own prejudices, you took what I said out of context, or overlooked it. Whichever the case, what I actually said was -

The divestment process in this case failed simply because the majority of parents already have their education of choice available to them, and the minority who don’t shall simply continue to be deprived of an education suitable for their children’s needs.

As for evidence to support my opinion, well there were three schools involved -

Naíscoil Íde

The facilitator's report states that "Parents indicated that the lack of a clearly worked out plan for the three schools meant that parents didn't have a clear proposal to consider. As a result, they were unwilling to take "a shot in the dark" and so plumped for retention of the status quo".

Scoil Áine

Perhaps not surprisingly, 83% of families voted against divestment and 17% in favour.

And Scoil Assaim -

Commenting on a meeting for parents at Scoil Assaim the facilitator said: "There was opposition to the notion that the majority who wanted to continue with Catholic education should facilitate the wishes of what might be a substantial minority to have a multi-denominational school in Raheny".

All cited from the article in the opening post.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377526#Comment_120377526

Your dyslexia doesn’t impact me in the slightest, my own does however-

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/98001802#Comment_98001802

It’s how words that look out of place like that stick out like a sore thumb, because they don’t ‘look’ right. I wouldn’t use it to excuse silly spelling mistakes like that though, everyone makes those kinds of mistakes, dyslexic or otherwise, especially if I were claiming to be an authority in education.

But that’s just me.

Senature

Three schools, but one could not be made non-denominational while the two others retain a Catholic ethos? Would that not be a fairer spread and provide for both the families who would want to have their children educated via religion and those who don't?

How many of these families are at the local mass regularly on a Sunday? Few I'd imagine going by the trend away from attendance in recent decades.

Seems to me the problem is that the divestment process is cr*p.

Dyr

Perhaps there should be a citizens assembly on this, to make a recommendation that matches the governments plans, entriely by cooincidence of course

People are probably weary of creating schools that will be run by zealots of the woke ethos. Better the devil you know.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120378592#Comment_120378592

Citizens assembly is hardly representative of people, especially people who have kids that are going to school or will be soon going to school.

What parent has free weekends to go to Dublin to sit at an assembly ?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120378592#Comment_120378592

The huge levels of oversubscribed demand for Educate Together schools would suggest people aren’t so wary. My local school was 800% oversubscribed for Junior Infants joiners a couple of years back.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120378748#Comment_120378748

The citizens assembly is entirely representative of the people of this nation and not just a government PR wheeze.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120378813#Comment_120378813

Love the sarcasm

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120378201#Comment_120378201

Why should parents have to change the school their children are in? Where is the benefit here for the existing children in the schools? It's clear that 4 out of 5 parents couldn't see how this change would positively impact the education of their children.

If more multi and non denominational schools are required then build new ones. There seems to be a substantial minority that wants them.

Ham_Sandwich

get the cataholic church out of the schools educate together a great idea heard some storys about them but didt pay any mind to them get the church out well be better off

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120378201#Comment_120378201

Who has to send their children to the newly non denominated School.

Lot of losers in that scenario as well.

hoodie6029

As much as the media (and myself) want our schools to be secular and co-ed, there are a huge number of people who want their children ‘to have the same upbringing as me/not be different to me’ so they stick with the status quo. Even though they may not follow or even agree with Catholicism.

Unfortunately I think it may take a couple of generations to change this here.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379034#Comment_120379034

There are a lot of people who haven't had any Catholic ancestors, cousins etc who would pick a Catholic school over others.

There are people with a passionate hatred of the Church who would pick the local Catholic school over the local Educate Together.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120378201#Comment_120378201

I am a supporter of churches owning schools, but also of parental choice.

I agree with your point here, as there are three schools/buildings, the churches should be encouraged to give up one.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379054#Comment_120379054

My child is headed for an ETB second-level school soon, and I am a bit worried that there may be all that "woke" nonsense.

I am not too worried, though, it's not in Ranelagh, or somewhere like that, so the nonsense should not have infiltrated that far yet.

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379054#Comment_120379054

You’re right on the first point but only in certain circumstances. What are the chances of lapsed catholic parents getting their unbaptised child into the local catholic school?

Second point, not at all.

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120378807#Comment_120378807

One school? Not sure if that's a trend. Nonetheless, all the primary schools in my area are oversubscribed - due I think to the lack of infrastructure/facilities keeping pace with the unprecedented population growth in the last decade or so.

As someone mentioned earlier, there's a lot of unknowns in the divestment process. Including perceptions of Educate Together having more focus on the lastest woke trends rather than traditional education. "Better the devil you know" as a previous poster put it.

AlanG

I've been involved in a couple of these situations due to involvement in parents and residents associations. The most recent one there was significant worry that the school would be divested form the RC church managment. Very surprising as many in the school were not RC. The main reason was that the school is extremely well run so why get rid of something that works well . No one is forced to participate in RC teaching and there is respect from the sttaff for all students. Why mess with something that works well for everyone,

Another reason, and something I experienced personally when previously involved in choosing a school struchture for a new are, is that many people involved in promoting Educate Toghther are more fundamentalist about it's belief structure than any religious school. There is a perceived lack of tolerance for different opinions and I think that can be seen from the way Educate Together react every time parents vote not to have divestment.

shesty

There were 2 issues in that Raheny situation - I believe (knowing some of the parents there), it started out as a bid to have the 3 schools as a single mixed school from JI to 6th class, rather than the current format where it is a mixed school JI to 1st or 2nd, and then the kids go to either a separate girl's or boys schools, on another campus, if I am right.

I believe the response from the Dept was "you can have a single school once it is non-Catholic".Making the whole thing into a much bigger deal than it was.

That was my understanding and I am happy to be corrected.But issues such as who would be principal (there are currently 3 principals, at least one would be done out of a job in the single school scenario), and what campus would the single school go on, were just some of the problems brought up.

So it wasn't just "we don't want an Educate Together", it was a decision to leave things as is for several reasons, mainly an absolute lack of clarity or commitment on the idea.

MrMusician18

Just on Raheny, the proposal was not for the schools to be vested in an Educate Together group, but Education and Training Board.

In any case, in this instance at least proposals were not fully developed. Parents would have been willing to take a shot in the dark over this. The decision itself here was not surprising, and it's my personal experience that parents tend to be quite conservative when it comes to education. Most are not willing for their children to be part of an experiment.

That said, what I i find troubling is that this logical and democratic conclusion is not accepted as fair by the author. The absolute lack of balance in an article published by RTE ought to give all pause.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120378201#Comment_120378201

The divestment process IS crap, because it serves as nothing more than a distraction, a useful way for the State to abdicate its responsibilities in education in favour of laying the responsibility for the current farce at the feet of parents who have no authority in the decisions the Government makes in relation to the education system in Ireland. It doesn’t matter how many bums there are or aren’t on seats on a Sunday because that’s not the basis on which decisions in relation to the education system are made.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120379140#Comment_120379140

They’re not right on the first point because that criteria has been done away with for some years now and every child has an equal opportunity on that basis at least to be admitted to a religious ethos school of which they are not a member of that faith community.

They’re right on the second point though - that there are many parents who in spite of their differences with, and objections to religious organisations involvement in education, are willing to enrol their children in religious ethos schools, in part because they’re basing their decisions on the outcomes for themselves, and in part because their knowledge of the alternatives is based upon the ideology being promoted in those schools which they find even less appealing, less appropriate and less desirable for their children’s education than the education provided in religious ethos schools.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120380178#Comment_120380178

That wasn’t the proposal though. The proposal only ever goes as far as divestment of the school from Catholic patronage, without any indication or mention as to what patronage the school would be under if it were to divest. That’s part of the issue, is that parents are given no indication and no choice as to what they would be letting themselves or their children in for, and contrary to your belief, and it even makes this clear in the article, parents were absolutely NOT willing to take a shot in the dark -

The facilitator's report states that "Parents indicated that the lack of a clearly worked out plan for the three schools meant that parents didn't have a clear proposal to consider. As a result, they were unwilling to take "a shot in the dark" and so plumped for retention of the status quo".

The conclusion which you refer to as logical and democratic is objected to by the author precisely on that basis - that it is neither logical, nor democratic. It is in effect an outright example of “tyranny of the majority”, in that the author asks the question as to whether or not it is fair that the majority of parents should be able to veto the rights of the minority of parents in relation to their children’s education, when that obligation to uphold the rights of all parents and their children in relation to education is one that is ultimately the responsibility of the State.

What kind of balance are you looking for really when 90% of schools are Catholic ethos schools, the divestment process is portrayed by the Minister for Education as an attempt to redress this imbalance, and the author points out that it is inherently flawed based upon the fact that it is entirely unfair to parents who do not wish to have their children educated in Catholic ethos schools? Do you perceive an article as unbalanced when it blatantly points out the Governments failure to invest in education and provide for alternative models of education when they scale back on building new schools to cater for a growing population which was always diverse, but this diversity among the population has never been reflected or represented in the Irish education system?

https://www.rte.ie/news/2023/0309/1361112-school-constructions/

Complaining that the article is unbalanced in that context, once it’s put into perspective, is ridiculous really.

joseywhales

This might be a naive question but does anybody actually ask the children who have to endure the institutions what they would like in terms of education? Perhaps if they had some ownership they would be more likely to be active and engaged in their learning. At least in secondary school.

Peregrinus

We're talking about national schools here, so children of primary school age.

MacDanger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120373586#Comment_120373586

If a majority were in favour of moving from single sex to co-ed, why wasn't that half of the project progressed?

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377529#Comment_120377529

so no evidence to back up your claim.

i am shocked at that

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120408721#Comment_120408721

Are you taking the proverbial or what? I provided explicit evidence to back up what I claimed; I was referring to the divestment process IN THIS CASE. That’s what you left out. I provided direct citations from the article to support what I claimed. And you come back a week later and say I have no evidence for what I claimed.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120381952#Comment_120381952

They'll vote not to go to school, and not do the subjects they don't like be that Irish, Maths, PE etc.

tinsofpeas

I wouldn't trust these governments to open a bag of crisps.

If they want more schools for their imported populations, then they can off and build them instead of playing cuckoo like with housing.

Parents know the score.

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120409364#Comment_120409364

this was your claim.

I didn't "leave out" anything

 "The divestment process in this case failed simply because the majority of parents already have their education of choice available to them"

you have provided nothing to back that up. nothing detailing peoples education of choice, just a lot of faux indignation.

So care to try again or will you be retracting?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416706#Comment_120416706

There’s no faux indignation. I’m perplexed as to your inability to read what’s written in front of you. I don’t care to try again tbh, I’ll leave you think whatever you like.

Flinty997

IMO he backed up his point comprehensively.

I think you're trying to argue a different point. That the parents weren't allowed to create their own choices. But offered poor alternatives to what's currently there, thats what they refused.

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416770#Comment_120416770

you are entitled to your own opinions not your own facts.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416777#Comment_120416777

Freudian slip mate? 😂

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120377254#Comment_120377254

What does religion have to do with educational curriculum? Parents should be doing it on their own time.

Certainly don't want my kids involved in respectfully marking all religious dates. Never get an education.

They can decide their own faith when older if they want.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120374331#Comment_120374331

Im an Athiest and im quite happy for my children to go to the catholic school they go to.

We looked into Educate together, among other schools, but it wasnt for us. But talking to other people who have their children in Educate together schools you would think i had committed some sort of sin on them. They are relentless in trying to force their opinions on people who have different opinions.

donaghs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120418556#Comment_120418556

I agree. I'm not religious, the power of the Catholic Church in Ireland would have been my main concern about education in the past. But now I am more concerned about intolerance on issues like gender ideology than the barely present "Catholic" ethos. But until there is some organised secular push-back, what remains of the traditional school seems to be the best place for a tolerant education, which remains focussed on core ideas like reading, writing and arithmathic.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120416821#Comment_120416821

Religion and beliefs. Not all irrational and intolerant beliefs are attached to an organised religion.