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Divestment of National Schools stalled in North Dublin due to parental objection

  • 18-03-2023 5:27pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 7,025 ✭✭✭


    Interesting article on RTE this morning regarding the divestment of schools in the Raheny area in North Dublin for a number of reasons. This was to be a pilot project on how divestment could be handled but the process has concluded with an overwhelming majority of parents voting for the status quo to remain. The debate was divisive and has split the school communities 8 to 2.

    The other interesting aspect is the editorialisation in the article and the lack of balance and bias - even for RTE. It's quite clear that a process has been followed and a decision arrived at democratically but the article questions the fairness of this. The vote against change is characterized as the change wasn't sold properly to parents rather than it what it actually was - completely unwanted. I somehow doubt that if parents had voted the other way it would have been characterised as unfair.




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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,544 ✭✭✭enfant terrible


    "Perhaps not surprisingly, 83% of families voted against divestment and 17% in favour. 56% voted in favour of changing to a system where girls and boys could be educated together, with 42% against."

    I agree if the figures above were in favour of divestment the author of the article would have been praising the process as a success, instead of lamenting its rejection.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,701 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    It's probably reasonable for the parents not to agree if they don't know what they are agreeing to.

    Also "But is it fair that a majority of parents were allowed to veto the right of a substantial minority who want their children educated in a non-Catholic setting, or even just want boys and girls to be educated together?" well yes, that is fair because its the majority and if the majority of the parents do not want to change, how is that anything but fair.

    I don't think religion should be in education but if the majority of parents want it to remain then you can't really go against that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 76 ✭✭drserious4


    If Educate Together school was just an ordinary school minus religion it would be a more popular sell.


    It's much more than that though, everything about the ethos changes and there will likely be differences with regard to homework, uniforms, how the teacher is addressed and how behaviour is managed.


    Many ET schools are exceptionally liberal and this is not to everyone's taste.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    They are starting to suffer from falling numbers while at the same time demanding the government build more



  • Posts: 1,539 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    I'm genuinely surprised so many parents voted against divestment.

    But it does sounds like they made this process of reconfiguration between three schools overly complicated.

    At the meeting parents complained that the reconfiguration process was "not properly worked out".

    They said it was "unfair" that they did not have "a clear view of how the schools would be reconfigured before they could agree with the transfer of patronage of any of the schools".

    The facilitator's report states that "Parents indicated that the lack of a clearly worked out plan for the three schools meant that parents didn't have a clear proposal to consider. As a result, they were unwilling to take "a shot in the dark" and so plumped for retention of the status quo".

    It sounds like it was set up to fail.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,890 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    I had heard they might be a bit "happy-clappy", although I wasn't sure of the extent of it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,974 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Parents shockingly wanting what's best for their children.


    Loike the Church and kids is hardly a great history, has it.


    No. That says though how shi7 the alternatives are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 884 ✭✭✭Hippodrome Song Owl


    That is as may be, but ET wasn't the alternative offered by the divestment process.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,720 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko




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  • Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭ahappychappy


    In response to the rather ill informed comments on ET.

    For context I work at senior level in third level and my professional experience involves evaluation of education programmes.

    My children have been through ET primary and secondary. The curriculum is the national curriculum They study facts the six main religions. They mark all cultural and religious dates respectfully.

    My experience is quality learner focused teaching where the focus is on ensuring each child reaches their potential and is instilled with respect for themselves and others.

    How on earth in this day and age people believe referring to a teacher by their first name reduces respect, actually makes me fear for the future.

    Behavior in my experience is on par with every other school in the neighborhood. They focus on restorative justice. Natural consequences for deliberate actions. All children are involved in agreeing their class golden rules.

    I am delighted my children have been given a great education and have benefited from been constantly supported to be themselves to be proud of their achievements and how to address their challenges.

    I do hope we will have a future where everyone has the education of choice available to them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,256 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    For context I work at senior level in third level and my professional experience involves evaluation of education programmes.

    I am delighted my children have been given a great education and have benefited from been constantly supported to be themselves to be proud of their achievements and how to address their challenges.


    Oops 😬 Had you not provided context, I’d have been prepared to overlook a gaffe like that 😖


    I do hope we will have a future where everyone has the education of choice available to them.


    That’s unlikely to happen while Government continues to pursue this ‘divestment’ nonsense. It could only happen when parents demand that the State fulfil its responsibility to provide for education suitable to every child’s needs. The divestment process in this case failed simply because the majority of parents already have their education of choice available to them, and the minority who don’t shall simply continue to be deprived of an education suitable for their children’s needs.

    The State attempting to persuade a majority of parents of the benefits of an ANY other form of education, which parents don’t feel is suitable for their children’s educational needs, was always doomed to failure.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    well thats utter nonsense.

    What "choice" do you think most people have when choosing schools?

    Im sure you will be providing evidence to back up "majority of parents already have their education of choice available to them"



  • Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭ahappychappy


    Apologies if my dyslexia impacts you. I am not writing an evaluation report nor a thesis so am not using the tech I usually use but hey have your low blow.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,256 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    What’s nonsense is in your own efforts to confirm your own prejudices, you took what I said out of context, or overlooked it. Whichever the case, what I actually said was -

    The divestment process in this case failed simply because the majority of parents already have their education of choice available to them, and the minority who don’t shall simply continue to be deprived of an education suitable for their children’s needs.

    As for evidence to support my opinion, well there were three schools involved -

    Naíscoil Íde

    The facilitator's report states that "Parents indicated that the lack of a clearly worked out plan for the three schools meant that parents didn't have a clear proposal to consider. As a result, they were unwilling to take "a shot in the dark" and so plumped for retention of the status quo".

    Scoil Áine

    Perhaps not surprisingly, 83% of families voted against divestment and 17% in favour.

    And Scoil Assaim -

    Commenting on a meeting for parents at Scoil Assaim the facilitator said: "There was opposition to the notion that the majority who wanted to continue with Catholic education should facilitate the wishes of what might be a substantial minority to have a multi-denominational school in Raheny".

    All cited from the article in the opening post.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,256 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Your dyslexia doesn’t impact me in the slightest, my own does however-

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/98001802#Comment_98001802

    It’s how words that look out of place like that stick out like a sore thumb, because they don’t ‘look’ right. I wouldn’t use it to excuse silly spelling mistakes like that though, everyone makes those kinds of mistakes, dyslexic or otherwise, especially if I were claiming to be an authority in education.

    But that’s just me.



  • Registered Users Posts: 334 ✭✭Senature


    Three schools, but one could not be made non-denominational while the two others retain a Catholic ethos? Would that not be a fairer spread and provide for both the families who would want to have their children educated via religion and those who don't?

    How many of these families are at the local mass regularly on a Sunday? Few I'd imagine going by the trend away from attendance in recent decades.

    Seems to me the problem is that the divestment process is cr*p.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Perhaps there should be a citizens assembly on this, to make a recommendation that matches the governments plans, entriely by cooincidence of course

    People are probably weary of creating schools that will be run by zealots of the woke ethos. Better the devil you know.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,777 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Citizens assembly is hardly representative of people, especially people who have kids that are going to school or will be soon going to school.

    What parent has free weekends to go to Dublin to sit at an assembly ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,720 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The huge levels of oversubscribed demand for Educate Together schools would suggest people aren’t so wary. My local school was 800% oversubscribed for Junior Infants joiners a couple of years back.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    The citizens assembly is entirely representative of the people of this nation and not just a government PR wheeze.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,777 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious




  • Registered Users Posts: 7,025 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    Why should parents have to change the school their children are in? Where is the benefit here for the existing children in the schools? It's clear that 4 out of 5 parents couldn't see how this change would positively impact the education of their children.

    If more multi and non denominational schools are required then build new ones. There seems to be a substantial minority that wants them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 296 ✭✭Ham_Sandwich


    get the cataholic church out of the schools educate together a great idea heard some storys about them but didt pay any mind to them get the church out well be better off



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,974 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Who has to send their children to the newly non denominated School.


    Lot of losers in that scenario as well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,216 ✭✭✭hoodie6029


    As much as the media (and myself) want our schools to be secular and co-ed, there are a huge number of people who want their children ‘to have the same upbringing as me/not be different to me’ so they stick with the status quo. Even though they may not follow or even agree with Catholicism.

    Unfortunately I think it may take a couple of generations to change this here.

    Cui bono?



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,974 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    There are a lot of people who haven't had any Catholic ancestors, cousins etc who would pick a Catholic school over others.


    There are people with a passionate hatred of the Church who would pick the local Catholic school over the local Educate Together.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,890 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    I am a supporter of churches owning schools, but also of parental choice.

    I agree with your point here, as there are three schools/buildings, the churches should be encouraged to give up one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,890 ✭✭✭✭Geuze



    My child is headed for an ETB second-level school soon, and I am a bit worried that there may be all that "woke" nonsense.

    I am not too worried, though, it's not in Ranelagh, or somewhere like that, so the nonsense should not have infiltrated that far yet.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,216 ✭✭✭hoodie6029


    You’re right on the first point but only in certain circumstances. What are the chances of lapsed catholic parents getting their unbaptised child into the local catholic school?

    Second point, not at all.

    Cui bono?



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