Griffiths Valuation Help

coffey87

Hi All

Looking for some help reading the above map from Griffiths Valuation. From what I can see, a lot of things don't match the occupants list. For example, 7 in the map is quite small, but according to the occupants list, its the largest section of land. There should also be a 6B, but there isn't on the map and none of the small letters are on the map. There is also a 5A and a 5B on the map, but only a 5 on the list. Am I missing something or are these maps always a little off?

pinkypinky

Yes, the maps are a generation later than the original valuation, because the original maps were not good enough quality for high resolution scanning.

Most of the time it's the same people but looks like you're unlucky here.

You can track the changes in the Valuation Office, which will also show mergers, sales, etc.

kildarejohn

Could the OP tell us the County/Barony/Parish and we might be able to help with specific comments on the townland he/she is researching.

coffey87

Thanks for the help everyone, yes the County is Limerick, the Barony is Clanwilliam and the Parish is Caherconlish.

kildarejohn

Hi Coffey. I am looking at the maps on askaboutireland.ie. To see the original version of the maps that corresponds with the printed valuation, you need to use the Map Version selector, which is in top right corner. In this case the original version seems to be version 3 (you can generally tell the original as the numbers are in very good hand drawn script). The capital letters A,B indicate land divisions and lower case a,b indicate houses.

In this example things are complicated because a small northern part of the townland is on a separate map sheet. I think version 2 is more correct for the northern part. But on version 3 the extreme NW corner has 5 crossed out and 4 written in. My guess is 5 was always wrong for this corner and 4 was the correct no. from the start.

There are also Val'n Off books for Moigh, you will find these on NAI website.

coffey87

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120340006#Comment_120340006

Thanks kildarejohn, that was a huge help, I never noticed the map versions before!

DannoA1

Anyone know why Griffith Valuation won't open online at the moment?

Hermy

Have you had a read of this thread?

The issue also gets a mention on Irish Genealogy News.

Mullinabreena

I've a question about Griffiths Valuation in the Townland of Glen (Spelled Gleann now of days) Leyney, Co Sligo

It's about number 10, there are 16 renters of this bit of land. I wonder is there anyway to break down who rented each field? The Townland is mainly mountain and while number 10 is quite poor quality land its better than some of the other places in the townland.

There was some marriages between the families but they were generally not all related, including some of the O'Connells which I'm trying to trace.

Here's a link

https://griffiths.askaboutireland.ie/gv4/z/zoomifyDynamicViewer.php?file=253192&path=./pix/253/&rs=36&showpage=1&mysession=2898452005752&width=&height=

Elwyn

The system in use whereby groups of people held land in common was called Rundale and probably goes back to the Middle Ages.  It was not unique to Ireland.

Tom Yager has published an article on it (34 pages): "What was Rundale and where did it come from?" Publ by An Cumann Le Bealoideas Eireann (the Irish Folklore Society). There’s a copy on the JSTOR site but you have to be a subscriber to access it. However it’s probably available elsewhere.

In the introduction it says: “Modern scholars have used the word in its broadest sense, to indicate a communal land system that was largely regulated by the tenants themselves and sometimes included the periodic redistribution of plots.” So unless for some reason someone in the mid 1800s compiled a more detailed map (and that did sometimes happen) it’s probably not possible to specifically identify your ancestors’ plot. But in any case it may have changed over the years.

Furze99

Not convinced this in rundale in the example above. This is a largish area (234 acres) with roads and several small houses etc More like the old Irish village idea of infarm and outfarm maybe. Would agree that the divisions for each person here likely small and too complex/ variable to map. Likely that these were all grouped under one resident/ agent who would collect taxes off the others. Rundale as I know it was more like taking a cultivation area and dividing it into a series of narrow strips, often only a few yards wide, separated with temporary line of sods/ stones.

Mullinabreena

I don't think it was a Rundale either. My Great Grandmother who was Anne Gallagher married my Great Grandfather William O'Connell, I know both their fathers were Martin Gallagher and Bryan or Bernard O'Connell and both fathers were from Gleann or Glen. My great Grandfather William inherited both his fathers fields and his father in laws fields, which my uncle owns today. So thats why I don't think it was a Rundale as each family had their own fields in number 10.

The problem for me is civil and church records pre 1860 for that townland are not available. So I'm assuming Thomas Gallagher on that Griffiths Valuation is Martin Gallaghers father but I don't for sure. I also dont know which O'Connell is Bryan/Bernard O'Connells father so if I knew how the fields of number 10 were divided up I'd have a fair idea which O'Connell is on Griffiths is my O'Connells. Also to add to the confusion Martin Gallaghers wife was Bridget O'Connell from Glen too. O'Connell was one ofthe most common surnamesin the parish.

pinkypinky

Have you gone into the Valuation Office and tracked forward each plot? This will get you to the next generation.

Mullinabreena

No, I didn't realise you could do that. I guess that will mean a trip to Dublin? Thanks you.

pinkypinky

They can do searches for you as well but I've always gone in myself - the luxury of living in Dublin I suppose.

coffey87

Can you just walk in to the valuation office or do you have to book? Is there somewhere that explains what you have to do, I'd like to see what happened to the land around me after Griffiths?

pinkypinky

Amazingly, they have a website with all of this info. https://valoff.ie/en/

You have to make an appointment. It came in during Covid but they never got rid of the system. Also there's no toilet.

Mullinabreena

Do you know if they have information on the Tithe Applotments of the 1820s?

Hermy

The Tithe Applotment records are in the National Archives.

Mullinabreena

I know thanks, but more interested in it they know who rented it plot. What I can see on the national archives its just a name for each townland. It's a pity so many townlands are missing from the Tithe applotments

pinkypinky

As far as I'm aware, all the extant Tithes are on the NAI site. It's always just a name with a plot. Sometimes you can use estate records and track back from Griffiths to figure out who owned the land.

Domu

I have a query re Griffith's Valuation. The numbers listed on the written list do not correspond to the numbers written in on the map. In the list there are 31 names / plots listed whilst on the map there are 46 plots numbered. The names on the list are all included in the later list for the townland in the Cancelled Books plus 15 new names added to it. There are 3 versions of the map but the 1st 2 don't really give me any clue as to why there is such a discrepancy between list and map. I do know that the entire townland was newly restriped around 1865/68 with people being moved and given new plots of land. The numbers on the map would seem to correspond to this new distribution of land - as seen in the Cancelled Book records.

My question - what are the numbers in the list or how can i find out what they are? They must be stating something but I have found absolutely no clue for this.

County: Mayo

Parish: Islandeady

Townland: Derrycoosh

GV List for Derrycoosh.JPG

GV Map of Derrycoosh.JPG

pinkypinky

The map corresponds to a later revaluation. The older maps were not all in good enough condition for hi-resolution scanning.

Domu

Thank you very much for that. But in this case there is no map record at all of the numbers listed in the written list. So why do the earlier map versions not show these numbers, I wonder? The entire GV was carried out so precisely and exactly - it seems odd that they would have a list of plot numbers and occupiers but no map corresponding to these. The final map with the numbers contains 46 plots not 31 and the people named on the written list of 31 are all listed in different plot numbers in the final map - this is according to the Cancelled Books list for 1869.

Thank you very much for taking the time to read this and reply.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121754802#Comment_121754802

Griffiths valuation was a huge job for its point in time, but it is understandable that mistakes were made. I too came across problems when researching Griffiths. I still live on the land that my ancestors occupied when Griffiths was undertook. The number on the map does not correspond with my families name on the listing though - it says they occupied a different plot. The maps are amazingly done very well, the detail on them is very accurate but the corresponding list is all wrong - the names of the people living in the area are correct but it has them owning/renting the wrong plot of land - they are all wrong!

I think in some areas there was mistakes which is understandable.

Lime Tree Farm

When I queried this with a relative - she explained that Griffiths mapping was done over a number of years before publication, population movements in a turbulent era, holdings amalgamated or divided depending on circumstances.

55Gem

My take on this..

There are only 3 plots in this Derrycoosh townland.

Plot one is divided among 31 people, (note the bracket down the side of the 31 names) plot 2 and 3 are in fee to Henry Browne.

If you look at the details for each name you will see the Map Reference at the bottom is give as 1 1 for M'Loughlin all the way to John Joy at 1 31

What is not clear on the maps is where plots 1, 2 and 3 are because as pinkypinky said the maps are not contemporary with the lists in the books, sometimes the map matches with the lists other times not at all, this later map appears to have divided plot 1 into parts for each occupant which will have changed since the Valuation was taken and also plots 2 and 3 may also have been divided up.

keltin

I have a similar problem with the askeaboutireland comparison between Griffiths and the 6”map. I am looking for the plot of land where my ancestor Patrick Healy lived (Co. Tipperary South, Slieveardagh Barony, Parish Ballingarry, Bolintlea townland). He appears on the Tithe Applotment of 1834 as entry 163 ‘Pat and widow Healy’ with 31 acres in Bolintlea. Patrick Healy is shown again in 1845 in the Valuation Office House Book for Bolintlea - he’s at the bottom of the left-hand page, plot 56a, house and stable. Griffiths (completed in 1853 for Co Tipperary) lists Patrick Healy again as plot 56a, now with 23 acres.

The trouble is, plot 56 doesn’t appear on the 6” map for Bolintlea Townland (the superimposed map numbers as supplied on askaboutireland only go up to 49). From reading the posts above, I guess that the land was re-divided after the 6” map was made (1829-1834). Can anyone suggest a way for me to locate this plot on a map (such as the 25” version)? I’m visiting Bolintlea in July and would really enjoy seeing the spot where my family once lived. Any help gratefully received!