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$30 per month for unlimited night rate electricity

  • 02-03-2023 1:11am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 64,703 ✭✭✭✭


    Tesla just announced this program, pilot in Texas first. We've all seen this coming, can't wait to get it here. Imagine having a total annual bill of $360 that would heat your house, heat your water, power your house and power all your cars. Many people in Ireland pay that per week (while being very careful and frugal). Not per year.

    And so it seriously begins, the renewable energy revolution.



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Comments

  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,758 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    Most standing charges here are more than that.

    Was actually looking up my use over the last 12 months, 270day, 9200 night!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭RetroEncabulator


    Huge difference in energy usage too.

    The average Irish household consumes 4,200 kWh per year vs an average of 10,632 kWh of electricity in the USA.

    Air conditioning probably makes up a huge proportion of that though.

    Solar power in places like Texas and California however is a total no brainier. They’ve so much sun in the US they could run the entire country on almost nothing else.

    see map:




  • Registered Users Posts: 21,318 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Bring it here. If they bring that here I'll pivot all available cash into battery storage, and make sure I can take in enough overnight to cover my own usage and (assuming a smart meter) export the rest during the day on a fit tariff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,222 ✭✭✭SD_DRACULA


    In an ideal world but willing to bet whatever amount that will never come to Ireland because 🤬 the consumer.

    If Ireland wasn't 100 years behind what other countries are doing with energy (i.e. Octopus in the UK) maybe.

    Energy companies will find a way to shoot that down, like the muppets that cried about Uber and ruined it here.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,234 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    the average average monthly bill in the US at the moment looks reasonably in the same ballpark as in ireland, by the looks of it?

    https://www.eia.gov/electricity/sales_revenue_price/pdf/table5_a.pdf



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,234 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    looking further though - can someone clarify what is the max current you could pull for charging?

    i.e. the $30 seems to be for unlimited charging - not unlimited electricity at night. but for most people, the difference may be moot, i suspect?

    the average energy consumption in the states appears to be ~900kWh per month - or about 30kWh per day. what's the average battery install for their customers? i.e. if you charged at night and tried to draw down 30kWh per day, you'd quickly run your batteries dry, i presume? maybe this is a way for tesla to drive consumers to a massive capital investment in their batteries.



  • Registered Users Posts: 64,703 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    On a standard Irish 12kva connection (like I have), you can draw about 15kW. So if night rate is 9 hours, you can draw 135kWh per day, or 50MWh per year. The average Irish household now uses 4MWh per year.

    I currently have 45kWh of home attached storage and if that tariff came in here I would upgrade to about 100kWh storage, or whatever I'd need to heat my house on a cold winter's day (plus charge my car once or twice a week)



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,234 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    that's my point - you're very invested in the technology, and have 50% more capacity to store what the average american household uses in a day. but you can bet your bottom dollar that the average american household doesn't have within an asses' roar of that.

    let's say (plucking a figure out of the air) that the average in the states is 6kWh of storage. at the rates i can see per unit in the PDF i linked to, it'd cost about $1 to charge that. and if they're offering that $30 for charging only, that's already what they're paying to fully charge the battery every single night.

    as i mentioned, this seems simply to be a way for tesla to get people to buy more batteries.



  • Registered Users Posts: 64,703 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    @magicbastarder - there are big waiting lists for Tesla home batteries (power walls), basically they don't sell them and use all batteries for more lucrative use (like in cars and in megapacks)


    And yes you are right of course, I am an outlier with my big storage already deployed. But I saw this coming and many people will now do the same.

    BTW $30 for 30 days of 135kWh per day is just $0.0074 per kWh. Well less than a cent. Oh yeah, baby!



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,234 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i think we're coming at this from different assumptions; i googled to see what was on offer and this was the first result.

    it suggests that they are not offering night rates *all day* - it suggests that they're capping a price on charging at night, no matter how much electricity you use to charge?

    "If charging at night is an option for you and you drive quite a bit, $30 per month is going to result in significant savings."

    so my assumptions based on that were:

    1 - the $30 only applies to consumption at night

    2 - it applies to charging consumption only.

    i.e. your consumption, as long as they meet those two parameters, can be unlimited.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 64,703 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    1. Yes of course it's for charging at night only, when wholesale electricity prices are regularly zero or even negative! Texas has a lot of wind. More than California.
    2. Nobody knows what you use your electricity for. That's private.

    And to give you the other side of the coin. Utility providers in Texas have already at some point charged $10 per kWh (yes ten dollars per unit, not a typo) during an extreme heat wave. So yeah, you better have batteries and or solar PV for that!

    Can't wait until we get some decent real time pricing here



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,234 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    well, that doesn't change my other point - who has the capacity to use 135kWh at night? you'd need a huge battery bank and/or several cars whose batteries you are fully draining on a daily basis. you do, but for the vast majority of americans, it might be worthless.

    do tesla collect data on the usage of their batteries? in the states, i'd have kinda assumed they do - that they could potentially distinguish what is used for charging a battery vs what's being pulled into the home.



  • Registered Users Posts: 64,703 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Tesla know EVERYTHING about you from using their products.


    Who has 135kWh? Me.

    45kWh in home storage. 110kWh in my cars. 15kWh in my 360l water tank and maybe 50kWh of heat I can pump into the house overnight with electrical heaters. That's 220kWh of storage that I have. Today.

    And I'm not the only one. There are several regulars on this forum who would have similar storage. I know we are outliers, but we are not rich and most of that was done DIY for relatively little cost. Payback time if we had no solar but sub $0.01 kWh rates would be maybe 2 years, possibly less.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,234 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Tesla know EVERYTHING about you from using their products.

    but that contradicts what you said in your previous post - "Nobody knows what you use your electricity for. That's private." so tesla know how much electricity you've used, to charge tesla batteries, which was my question.

    again, i'll go back to my previous point - you're talking about a price per unit which is essentially hypothetical; only achievable if you're actually using 135kWh every day. the average in the states is 30 (and A/c would be a large part of that there)

    you'd have to be doing a lot of driving to make up the difference, averaging 600km or 800km a day or thereabouts to use that in charging an electric car.

    or leaving your power shower on 24/7 at greater than half power.



  • Registered Users Posts: 64,703 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    No it doesn't contradict. Tesla knows everything about how you use their products. About how you use your Tesla car or your Tesla power wall. But I don't have a Tesla power wall. Tesla knows nothing about the electricity that goes into my house.


    Also, no, not hypothetical. The max my connection can already take (135kWh) with the storage I already have*, is enough to cover my total annual electricity, gas and fuel bills. For $360 per year. Some people pay more per week.

    *technically I could do this now, but it would be hard work as I would need to use one or more of my cars as V2H. Have already done this in the last few years, but it would be far easier if I just upped my home storage to nearer 100kWh



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,318 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    If they ever brought in a 9 hour uncapped night rate like that here, I suspect a lot of us would be more accepting of a smart meter. High day tariffs, but uncapped night use for 9 hours, would mean I'd be making some significant money exporting. Exporting PV generation all year round, and the excess. Basically timing the batteries to fully discharge to 5% at 23:59 and charge up to 100% by 07:59 then discharge all day. Let the dolla dolla roll in.



  • Registered Users Posts: 64,703 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    I'd be extremely happy with a €1 day rate, €0.01 night rate (or even variable real cost night rate announced 24h in advance like in the UK) and €0.10 untaxed FIT with a smart meter and zero standing charge.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,651 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    Tesla do indeed, not only do they know right now where my car is parked, they know the temperature of each individual cell, the voltage of each cell, the temps at every inlet of the car and even the degree off centre the car is parked from the angle of the front wheels. There's even more recorded and sent off the mothership

    Tesla is a data company



  • Registered Users Posts: 984 ✭✭✭Mr Q


    I think most are reading this wrong. It is for charging your car, not house usage and batteries.

    Currently I would spend less than that a year to charge the car for the 24k kilometers I average per year. It isn't that cheap unless you are doing a lot of mileage.

    "By this summer, we are going to offer retail electricity plans to people who have our cars where they can have unlimited overnight home charging for $30 per month"



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,651 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1




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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,651 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    Clever though as takes pressure off opening up the SuC network in the US



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,318 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Yes but how would they know what the electricity is used for?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,199 ✭✭✭ongarite


    Can't see this rolling outside Texas. The grid in Texas there is completely separate from the rest of the US grid infrastructure.

    Can have very cheap overnight rates already with several providers but it's subject to massive surge pricing conditions. Can see something similar in place for this Tesla plan. Plus the grid is far from reliable in winter & peak summer loads as quick search will show.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,234 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    is powerwall not their house battery system? from the link i posted:

    "Tesla Electric is actively and automatically buying and selling electricity for Tesla Powerwall owners – providing a buffer against peak prices.The company is essentially becoming an energy retailer.

    Tesla Electric is currently only available to Powerwall owners in Texas"



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,441 ✭✭✭micks_address


    arent we getting a tad excited about something thats being launched in the US and will probably never arrive here?



  • Registered Users Posts: 984 ✭✭✭Mr Q


    They would know how many units of charge you car has taken during the period. Without the details who knows.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,318 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    yes but thats gross or net, and also, what do they do give you a credit on your bill?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,234 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    in the context of texas, the average unit price is 12c, so $1 a day would usually buy you 8kWh. so it makes sense if someone is able to pull down and store more than 8kWh a night, and use it all the next day (using it is probably reasonably trivial given the average daily consumption is approx 30 units, but that's ignoring the costs of installing the equipment in the first place, which would change the calculation)



  • Registered Users Posts: 64,703 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Ok if the deal is unlimited only into the car or power wall that is very limiting alright. Although you could setup the car for V2H (Tesla would also know if you did this, but will probably not specifically exclude it)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 64,703 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    Yes and no. It's unlikely we will get this particular deal. In Ireland. From Tesla. This year or even a year or two from now. That said, this is the way things are going. It's inevitable with the transition to sustainable energy. In the UK you get paid for taking electricity at night sometimes with the likes of Octopus or Tesla, and you know when it's coming. That's not new either, it's been like that for a couple of years. Ireland is of course a good few years behind any of this stuff. We have the knowledge, the infrastructure, the companies that can do it. But the Irish mentality is often backward looking and averse to change.



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