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Cap 2023

  • 18-02-2023 10:25pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭


    Just reading the magazine that came with the journal this week and it’s a great read with plenty information and different scenarios

    Im just wondering if say your entitlements are worth €60 an acre what would your entitlements be this year going forward? Not including the eco scheme

    Another scenario if one is farming an extra 20 acres the year comming, naked land what value will this be worth an acre in entitlements?



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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 820 ✭✭✭Sugarbowl


    I found that magazine very informative too.

    there’s a CAP calculator that helps you work out what payment you will get the coming year.

    https://cap-calculators.apps.rhos.agriculture.gov.ie/payments



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭morphy87


    What’s the story if you have the maps of land but you don’t use the land, it’s just left idle?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,922 ✭✭✭alps




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,167 ✭✭✭Good loser


    Purely from reading that supplement I would say/guess; currently €60 per acre for BPS plus Greening equals €150 per Ha.

    Your BISS entitlement will be €149.26 per HA plus Criss of €43.15/Ha up to max of 30 acres plus ECO (almost all qualify for this).

    Don't understand ECO but it seems to be worked off your 2022 BPS, maybe 25%



  • Registered Users Posts: 999 ✭✭✭nhg




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  • Registered Users Posts: 999 ✭✭✭nhg


    From website



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭Siamsa Sessions


    That’s very useful - thanks.

    I did a few sums on the back of an envelope based on the info in the CAP magazine and it tallies with what the calculator is telling me so I’ve a rough idea now on the difference it’ll make to me.

    Trading as Sullivan’s Farm on YouTube



  • Registered Users Posts: 537 ✭✭✭GNWoodd


    If CRISS isn’t linked to the number of entitlements held , is it simply a top up to the ANC ?

    Can someone actively farming but without entitlements now claim both ANC and CRISS ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭morphy87


    What is criss? I thought it was to bring up low value entitlements to average levels?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,945 ✭✭✭SuperTortoise


    I wonder how many more acronyms they can come up with and change about every year?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,126 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    If you have a single entitlement you can draw CRISS on your total area up to 30 HA. Greening is totally disconnected from entitlements.

    If you have say 35 HA you can draw ANC on either 30 or 34 HA ( varying rate)provided you meet the conditions of the scheme.

    Next you can draw Greening/ ECO about 75-80/HA provide you need the conditions for that.

    If you own a single entitlement you can draw CRISS on 30 HA Wich is a about 45/ HA.

    Finally you can draw BLISS for the number of entitlements you own up to 35 HA.

    Basically it means that you are entitled to draw slightly above 200/HA with a single entitlement on the first 30 HA


    There is going to be a lot of sad lads when they go to sell entitlements this Year. A significant amount held off because claw back is gone for this and next year. As well higher value ones will collapse in value. Previously greening was a percentage

    An entitlement that was worth 600 ( greening was 200+) is not less that 400+ 75 eco is no longer attached to it

    Even low value ones will be hit.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭Siamsa Sessions


    I'm hoping to buy a few entitlements in the coming weeks so I'll know more then what the trade is like.

    I bought low-value ones (€200 incl. greening) a few years back and they cost 2.1 times the value at that stage.

    Trading as Sullivan’s Farm on YouTube



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭morphy87


    What is the average current entitlement value at the moment?

    What happens if you’re farming extra land this year that has no entitlements, for example if you had 60 acres and 60 entitlements at slightly below average value but you’re farming 80 acres the year coming but the extra 20 is naked land



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭Siamsa Sessions


    Average value is €156.18 according to the CAP calculator page on the Dept website: https://cap-calculators.apps.rhos.agriculture.gov.ie/payments

    In a nutshell, you will gain a few quid from the 20 naked acres. Leave aside what you might gain/lose on the 60 acres and 60 entitlements, the 20 naked acres will attract the eco-scheme payment of €63 (estimate from Dept) per HA, so you'll get €63 x 8 HA (20 acres) = €509. On 60 acres, or 24 HA, you might also gain something from CRISS (also called front-loading).

    Ultimately, it depends on the value of the existing entitlements as to whether you gain or lose overall. People with lower value entitlements will gain a little while those with high value ones will lose out.

    Trading as Sullivan’s Farm on YouTube



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭morphy87


    So the average is 156 an entitlement per ha, is greening included in the 156 or is this extra on top of the 156?

    so if my entitlements are the average value the only thing I can draw on this 20 acres are anc and Eco Schemes? I know I can lease or buy entitlements also for this,



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,126 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    I. Enin no rush buying entitlements this year until.the market settles. The new values will not be available until mid March. It's a matter of then waiting for the market to settle.

    However high value entitlements are probably only worth1-1.5 times Bliss face value as there value will shrink. As well remember you are only buying the Bliss fraction no matter what an auctioneer tells you. Lower value below below 200 total value 130ish bliss value will probably trade at 2.5-3 times value

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭morphy87


    So what advice would you give to someone that has naked land, I have 16 acres of naked land for the past few years and the way it was working I was drawing entitlements for a man and I gave back half to him, it worked out at €800 each

    so going forward would you recommend buying entitlements for the 16 acres?



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,126 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    I would lean towards buying rather than renting them. However you are only buying the BLISS part you will get the ECO approx 75 euro in the land anyways ( as they are not linked to entitlements) and CRISS approximately 45 euro if applicable ( as you have other entitlement is) so it the value of the BLISS part that you need to factor in.

    I would be wary of buying BLISS fractional of values above euro 200 ( actually anything above 160/170 will drop at a guess) as they will decrees substantially in value.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭MIKEKC


    Does 2.5_3 not seem high for the biss. Section



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,425 ✭✭✭J.O. Farmer


    The biss section is all entitlements are worth now - it doesn't matter what they were worth in the last CAP.

    Anyone selling entitlements is going to find that out fairly quickly.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,126 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    It would depend.

    The minimum value entitlement now are 200 euro. The greening is about 77 euro and Bliss is 123 euro. This Bliss part willing increase in value as payments are supposed to converge by 10 euro.

    So if you gave 3X bliss the cost will be 370/ unit and you will have the money back in three years depending on tax situation. 2.5X would be 305/ unit. However they will continue to rise even after 2027

    The catch is higher value one especially ones over 400/unit. The Bliss value will drop by 30/ unit over this CAP period but will continue to drop after that. There initial value will be about 228 and will reduce to 198 by 2027.

    Mind you the owners of the units will take a 50/ HA loss even with CRISS straight off and it will be about 320/ unit( Inc eco and Cross by 2027)

    If you made the mistake of paying 3X value for such BLISS value it would take four years to pay off ( again depending on tax ) with value decreasing post 2027.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,126 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Just as an added note as BLISS values will not be very high 130-200 euro mostly they will technically be easier bought. This will drive price to an extent. As well demand will be strong as land that was excluded before ( scrub, small wooded area, reed and rushy area) are now back eligible again

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭morphy87


    So if you had 16 acres of naked land what would you do and what type of entitlements would you buy? If buy how much a year would you be better off on the 16 acres between entitlements, bliss,echo scheme and Criss?



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,126 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    It all depends is this 16 acres(6.4HA) above or below 30 HA total land holding.

    Of below you automatically collect 120/ HA( Criss+eco) a total of 768 euro. If above you get no Cross only eco so 75/ HA a total of 480 euro.

    It will depend on the Bliss value you buy ( if you buy at all) say you buy Bliss values of 150/unit at 2.5X they will cost 375/ unit or 2400(plus 120-150 auctioneer fees)

    So 2550 and this adds 960 to your years payments.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭morphy87


    farming 36 ha in total,so if I purchased entitlements to the value that you listed I would get 960 a year plus 480?



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,126 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭morphy87


    I’m considering leasing some extra land, there is entitlements on the land of average value, the owner was thinking of keeping the entitlements and I draw them down and give them back, can you do this in the new cap? Would he be better to sell the entitlements or lease them as I would prefer if the land was naked, I haven’t much exsperience of dealing with matters like this



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,126 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Agree a lease price. The crack of playing back entitlements is outdated. The value of entitlements is not minimal. Eco( formally greening) and CRISS ( top up on first 30 HA) are no longer tied to the entitlement so you are entitled to that on the land of it is naked.

    If he is leasing the land separate I do not think he can any longer lease.

    If he sell this year there is no claw back. However the value should be reduced significantly as a 250 euro entitlement now is made up of approximately 45 eur CRISS, 75 BLISS and the remainder ( approx 130) is the BLISS payment which he is technically selling

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,047 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    You can still lease the entitlements on their own.

    The net value of mine are 240 without criss or eco

    I was wondering would I get 50%for them, A person would be a fool to give 100% back although I hear of landlords expecting the criss and eco as well



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,169 ✭✭✭Sami23


    Did a bit of digging and I think entitlements are currently trading around 2.4 to 2.7 the basic Biss value.

    E.g. 155 euro entitlements cost 370.

    170 euro entitlements cost 440.

    Now the 155's will stay 155 for the 5 years and the 170's will drop slightly over the 5 years due to 85% convergence.

    Would that be generally what the rest of ye are seeing ?



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