Headhunted by Oz Engineering Company

Lefty2Guns

Hi All,

I have been approached by an engineering firm within Oz to go work for them.

My wife and I are interested (no kids) in taking up this opportunity if the financials can be agreed.

The company will arrange my Visa, flights and accomodation until I get settled (Option to work in any of the major cities). Its at the early stages at the minute.

My question is, if this company arranges my Visa, am I tied into this company and cannot move companies if things did not work out as expected/sold?

I'm an experienced electrical engineer within the construction industry, I would be looking for higher level salary.

My wife's best friend lives in Perth and she said a salary of $150,000/$175,000 per year is basic enough. What would an experienced electrical engineer generally expect to make in Oz would anyone know.

I look forward to any feedback.

aido79

Have you looked into an independent skilled visa?

Did the company say what type of visa they are offering you? To be honest I would stay away from sponsorship as its not ideal to be tied to a company.

I definitely would call that type of salary basic enough unless you are doing fifo in mining. Have the company mentioned a salary? If they are offering sponsorship I'd imagine it will be a lot less than that.

Lefty2Guns

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120299003#Comment_120299003

Hi, cheers for the feedback.

I wasn't actually looking to move to Oz to be honest, me and wife have discussed moving abroad for a few years and conincdently I was contacted via LinkedIn. I lived in Sydney before but my wife hasn't had the experience.

I have the interview later so will discuss a lot of these things on the call. If I took the role I would be stationed in Sydney. Regarding the salary, are you saying the salary is definitely not basic or not? Apologies, your sentence isn't clear in regards to the salary.

The company, if I get the role, are supplying Visa for me and my wife, flights and accomodation until I get settled. I am cautious of being tied into one company for my visa. I have done some research on the company and they are have offices all over Oz.

Calahonda52

You need to clarify exactly the sort of visa, including the exact subclass you are getting.

I presume the oz embassy website will have it or else just call them

from here

https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/visas/getting-a-visa/visa-listing

i see this

Lefty2Guns

Thanks.

I'll discuss this on the call later. Thanks

aido79

Best of luck with the interview.

In regards to the salary I would be surprised if they offer you more than $100k but I could be way off the mark as there seems to be a shortage of engineers in Australia at the minute.

Lefty2Guns

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120302761#Comment_120302761

Thanks Aido.

I told the recruiter what my salary expectations are based on my current salary and package. Why would I leave a good paying job in Ireland to earn less in Australia. There is a huge demand for engineers worldwide. I could move to mainland Europe and increase my salary by 50%.

We'll see how it goes. Thanks for getting back to me.

aido79

As I said I could be way off the mark with my estimate of the salary offered. I've just seen too many people being offered lower salaries in Australia because the company was sponsoring them and knew the person was tied to them.

I'm also an electrical engineer, although less experienced as I made the change from electrician to engineer and only finished my degree last year, so I would be interested in hearing more about what's on offer for engineers in Australia. I'm an Australian citizen so might be a bit different as I wouldn't need a visa.

Lefty2Guns

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120303115#Comment_120303115

I done the same, done my electrical apprenticeship, qualified and went to Oz for a year 04/05. Came back just before the recession and enrolled in DIT and done a part time course. I've now 8 years experience as a sparks (4 apprentice and 4 qualified) and nearly 12 years experience as an electrical engineer working on Healthcare and Pharma projects as a consultant.

Anyway, done the first round interview last night. The guy that interviewed told me that there is so much work in the pipeline that the country doesn't have the man power to complete it so they are doing a recruitment drive in UK and Ireland. They also have the Olympic Games in 2032 which will involve major projects being built and his company is in the running for a lot of the projects.

We didn't discuss money last night but a further meeting with the CEO has now been discussed.

Just doing the simple maths on lets say the $100000 salary you mentioned, Oz tax rate is about 30% of that and then to rent somewhere decent in Sydney (1 bed apartment lets say) is going to cost me close to $35,000 per year. That leaves me with $33,000 per year to pay bills and live. Why would I bother. When I was sparking over there 20 years ago nearly I was earning $75,000 per year.

I'm currently on a package worth €85,000 per year in Dublin and its only going one way at the moment due to lack of electrical engineers in the industry.

I'll keep you updated on how things go.

pete4130

Looking at Seek.com specifically for electrical engineers in Sydney, the going salary is about $140-150k a year plus superannuation. So a package of about $165k. If you get a company car thats another perk.

I can see the Aus Defence Forces are paying $100k-ish for an electrical engineer and they usually pay low rates compared to the private sector. This indicates that achieving $140-150k isn't unreasonable.

Australia has national "award rates" for job but these are so out of touch with market demands. I work as a Land/Engineering/Mining Surveyor. The award rate for my role/position is about $87k a year for the top level rate according to the "award rate". In reality, the figure is closer to $155k plus super for civil works and I've been offered up to $210k plus super for fly in/fly out mining roles.

With regards to your visa sponsorship visa. You are tied to that company for a period of time. This doesn't stop you getting your individual skills visa while you are on the sponsorship visa. This is something I would do right away to have more freedom if/when you get over here.

Also, It isn't purely about the $'s you can earn. The lifestyle here is much better. More usable public amenities. Beaches, parks and public spaces are more usable with better weather.

I lived in Sydney for 9 years and it was great. Traffic is hectic, its busy and once I had a kid I moved about 70km south to Wollongong, the 2nd or 3rd biggest city in NSW. It's like a big spread out town. Nestled between the mountains and beaches. Traffic is not as hectic, beaches are less packed, has everything the Sydney has with bigger houses, bigger gardens, less pollution, less people and I love it. It's only about 1h15m commute to Sydney which many people do.

Lefty2Guns

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120307394#Comment_120307394

Thanks Pete.

Superannuation was mentioned to me on the call last time. What exactly is it? How does it help your salary?

I lived in Sydney for about 7 months when I was there last time so I'm familiar enough with the city.

Also, what are the National Award rates you mention?

pete4130

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120319560#Comment_120319560

Superannuation is a contribution your employer legally has to pay into your superannuation fund. Its like your pension fund for when you retire. It increased recently to 10.5%. Some employers pay above this. You can choose voluntary contributions into your super fund which, I think, are tax deductible. Super funds then invest your money to increase its value. So they do increase and decrease. Generally, the long term growth of super fund allows it to increase but it is down to market conditions.

You can choose to have a safe investment where growth is slower or an aggressive option where your gains are higher and also the risks. You can choose to split this 50/50 as well.

So if a job offers a salary package of $125kwith vehicle for example. Salary would be $100k, Super is $10.5k and then the vehicle you get with a company is valued at maybe $14k per year.

If you ever decided to return home, you can cash out your superannuation but the govt will keep 30% of it I believe.

The National Award Rates are the minimum legal amount a person earns for their role, dependent on age and experience, their notice to quite requirements, their redundancy entitlements etc. So a graduate is guaranteed to earn X amount which increases each year with more experience and your age. Basically stops employers underpaying people. As I said, the skills shortage makes the Award Rate obsolete for roles like yours.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120304349#Comment_120304349

What was the company?

Top electrical engineers would be on far more that 100k. Depends on your experience.

Whether they pay for your visas or not has no bearing on whether you are tied to them. It all depends on the visa type. If they pay for an Independent visa, you are independent, if you pay for a sponsored visa - you are still tied to them.

When comparing a salary, you should factor tax and super into both. Should be easy to figure out the equivalent of 85k euro in Oz. I'd guess its less that the direct conversion due to tax being lower and the fact there is compulsory super (10+% pension bonus on top). But maybe you'd have to factor in an inconvenience value.

Ignore you friend that said 175k is basic salary. They are likely skewed by some insane mining salaries. The effect earrings from 175k AUD would be equal 140-150k euro

pete4130

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120404744#Comment_120404744

Yeah, the average Australian income is about $75k-$85k a year. The $175k is way off the mark for a basic salary.

Lefty2Guns

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120404744#Comment_120404744

The company is Fredon. They seem to be one of the biggest contractors over in Oz. They do design and build projects.

Had my 3rd and final interview this morning. They want me to go work in Brisbane, which I don't have an issue with due to its proximity to the Gold Coast and Byron Bay.

Money offered is close to the €100k mark (160k Oz Dollars) as basic plus Super. They are to confirm whether flights and relocation assistance will be included.

75% committed now, my wife is 50/50 and nervous about making the move. 4 years over there and renting out our home here we would be pretty much mortgage free when we returned, assuming there would not be an issue with claiming back the Super which amounts to nearly €50k over 4 years.

Only stumbling block on my end is renting out our home in Ireland with all the **** going on at the moment.

We will need to make our minds up over the next week or so.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491658#Comment_120491658

Fredon are probably the biggest electrical contactor. I'd have guess they would pay around 150k, but I suppose they are hiring for next year.

Generally you can't directly convert to compare the salaries. The tax and super makes too big a difference at that level.

• E.g. $160k is €98k today.
• Take-home on 160k is $116-120k. Plus $17.6k super that's around ~$135k (€83k).
• €98k in Ireland is a take-home of juts under €62k. That's a €20k ($32k) difference between €100k and $160k (including super)
• To get the same earnings of €83k you'd need to be earning €140k, there are other factors like cost of living. But the the above is still significant.

That's a huge uplift and I think you'd be mad to not jump at it. Super over 4 years would probably amount to 80k. assume you get a 5% pay increase each year. Super will be 11% when you start, and 12% in two years.

Peregrinus

Nitpick: You're counting the gross value of super, but I think nowadays that if the worker leaves the country and takes out their super, that's taxed.

This matters, because of the 20k difference you identify, just over half is represented by super. So accounting for tax on super withdrawals might make a non-trivial difference to the calculation.

The other, and even bigger, factor is that OP is accompanied by his wife. If she's working in Ireland, you have to account for the loss of her Irish wage versus whatever she might earn in Australia (if she can work). If she's not working, her tax allowances and tax bands are available to OP to reduce his irish tax liability, but the same won't apply in Australia so, again, that could materially impact the calculation.

Tl;dr: This stuff is complex, and can be significantly affected by the individual's personal circumstances. There's also a degree of uncertainty because tax rules, either in Ireland or in Aus, could change during the years he's here. I would counsel people who are doing this only or mainly for the money to do their research and their calculations very carefully, possibly with professional help. But if you're doing this because you want the experience of living/working abroad for a while, you may be more comfortable with a degree of uncertainty about exactly how it will play out financially.

Lefty2Guns

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120494287#Comment_120494287

Do you know much about Fredon in terms of what they are like to work for?

Cheers for the detailed response too, much appreciated.

Lefty2Guns

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120494335#Comment_120494335

Hi, not overly fixated on the money side of things. We would be moving more for a change in lifestyle and for my wife to experience living abroad.

You mentioned above if my wife can work. I was expecting/assuming my wife would get a working visa also as part of the deal. I'll have to raise that with them. Moving to another city where she doesn't know anyone wouldn't work if she is not permitted to work.

Feedback greatly appreciated.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120494335#Comment_120494335

Very solid advice there.

From outside looking in it seems like a long shot move to make for what appears to be the guts of 15 grand euro.

Coupled with the tax implications and management around renting your own house I'm not sure how your making out ahead in this scenario at all.

As above if the goal is a lifestyle change then it may make more sense but it doesn't seem to be a financial one or one that would pay off a mortgage in a few years.

You really need to redo the maths and consider the goals of such a a move. As you've stated you could do better in Europe financially.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120495114#Comment_120495114

As stated you could also do better in Ireland. Recruiters are mad for electrical engineers and some companies are offering very strong money.

Balance the cost of moving and getting set up vs the likelihood of a raise in Ireland.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120494335#Comment_120494335

The gross super point is relevant. If OP is 100% leaving in 4 years he should consider the taxed value.

So that 20k might be 16-17k (tax is around 20%). Making the take home equivalent about 80k

The fundamental point remains that you can’t just convert the gross salary due to different in tax and super.

I was assuming that his wife would also be working and could get a similar uplift. She would be entitled to work. Would need to include her earning calf too.

Tax situation could change. If fact they are changing. Australian tax rates for people in that bracket are coming down next year.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120494744#Comment_120494744

Fredon operate on the construction side. Subcontracted to tier 1 builders on major jobs. As opposed to design side, like say Arup. My last few big jobs have all had Fredin as the electrical subdue. Standium, metro station, skyscraper, etc. The scale of project would likely be much larger than what you are used to. Working on projects like that is one of the reasons I’ve stayed so long in Australia.

FYI your wife would be on the same visa type as you, but her own visa. She’d be able to work freely.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120495114#Comment_120495114

15 grand gross, the net would be much higher when you factor tax and super. OP’s take home is around 55k now. Even allowing for the 20% super tax of my numbers above, that 80k above is plus 25k per year. His wife could possibly also earn more.

Lefty2Guns

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120495114#Comment_120495114

Hi, regarding my mortgage, fortunate enough that I'm down to less than €90k, by renting out our home we can charge double what our mortgage payments are at present. We do that for 4 years plus the potential from what we earn on the Super when we return, I'd pay that directly off what we owe. Thats all in simple payback terms but we wouldn't be far off having no mortgage after that. Definitely going for lifestyle change, if we make money we make money.

Lefty2Guns

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120495504#Comment_120495504

Thanks. Have Fredon got a good reputation?

I've been involved in healthcare design for a good 5 years now, they want me to go and work on a few large scale hospital projects that they have in the pipeline.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120495908#Comment_120495908

You're not doing your tax figures there tbh . Not at all.

thinkabouit

I would say use the Working holiday visa for a start. You can still work for that company but have the freedom to move around etc

you can get 3 year’s extension’s I believe now

I loved oz, be back there tomorrow if I could.

7 - 8 month’s of winter in Ireland is depressing

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120496873#Comment_120496873

He would only be able to work for a company for 6months on a WHV. And would have to do regional work to get subsequent years WHV. Need to be under 30.

They wouldn’t offer him the role without PR. Plus he can move around on PR

thinkabouit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120497513#Comment_120497513

True but the point i was making was he could use the WHV to suss thing’s out over there for the time being rather than making a big commitment & not being what he was expecting.

Lefty2Guns

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120496861#Comment_120496861

I don't have a great understanding of the tax system and haven't looked into much. I do know if I was to rent my house out for twice as much as what my mortgage payments are I'd still be under the tax threshold of what you can earn from renting your home out before you start getting taxed.

Lefty2Guns

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120496873#Comment_120496873

I've already lived and worked in Oz in the year long working holiday visa. Plus me and my wife are in our early 40's.